Transit City Plan

[Dan416]

Except voters keep choosing different people with different decisions. How many transit plans have we gone through in the last 20 years? How much of them have been built? Who do we have to thank? Rae? Harris? Miller? McGuinty? Ford?

 

[GenerationW]

That's democracy. Newly elected governments change plans (transit or otherwise) in mid-stream all the the time. But what does it really matter since none of our previous transit plans have been matched by reliable financing?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm new to this forum so forgive me for my ignorance.

Anyways, we need to stop the political blame game. It gets Toronto nowhere.

We need to reframe the transit debate in this city. For the past two decades we've focused on creating mediocre transit plans that give Torontonians second class trasnit for a cheap price (yes, Transit City is one of those plans). Toronto needs a bold new transit plan (something on the scale of the Bloor-Danforth line from the 1960s) to get the city's transit infrastructure where it needs to be. I personally believe that the Eglinton Crosstown needs to be a full east to west subway line with Toronto Rockets and actual subway stations. I understand that in many places along Eglinton there is not enough density to justify a subway at the moment, but remember that there wasn't much density along Bloor either when the Bloor-Danforth was built.

This City also has to go ahead and build the Downtown Relief Line that we've been talking about since the 1980s. The construction of the DRL isn't even something that needs to be debated; everyone agrees that it is urgently needed and we just need the will to put shovels in the ground. Of course the DRL would need to be built from Eglinton going south to Union and back up to Eglinton (as opposed to going south from Dundas West to Union and back north to Pape as proposed in the Network 2011 plan), but if the line used LRT technology and nearby rail corridors it could be built for about $10 billion.


What do you guys think about this idea?

 

[Electrify]

I'm new to this forum so forgive me for my ignorance.

Anyways, we need to stop the political blame game. It gets Toronto nowhere.

We need to reframe the transit debate in this city. For the past two decades we've focused on creating mediocre transit plans that give Torontonians second class trasnit for a cheap price (yes, Transit City is one of those plans). Toronto needs a bold new transit plan (something on the scale of the Bloor-Danforth line from the 1960s) to get the city's transit infrastructure where it needs to be. I personally believe that the Eglinton Crosstown needs to be a full east to west subway line with Toronto Rockets and actual subway stations. I understand that in many places along Eglinton there is not enough density to justify a subway at the moment, but remember that there wasn't much density along Bloor either when the Bloor-Danforth was built.

This City also has to go ahead and build the Downtown Relief Line that we've been talking about since the 1980s. The construction of the DRL isn't even something that needs to be debated; everyone agrees that it is urgently needed and we just need the will to put shovels in the ground. Of course the DRL would need to be built from Eglinton going south to Union and back up to Eglinton (as opposed to going south from Dundas West to Union and back north to Pape as proposed in the Network 2011 plan), but if the line used LRT technology and nearby rail corridors it could be built for about $10 billion.


What do you guys think about this idea?

Welcome to Urban Toronto

The thing with changing Eglinton to a full metro is that the plans and orders have been made for low floor trains with overhead wires. You would have to cancel and change the order, plus change the design of the line to support high floor metro trains. Not to mention, if it is to be integrated into the Scarborough RT metro trains can't handle the tight turns on the line.

I will agree that Transit City was second class, but LRT is far from that in reality. Here is a thread of examples of what LRT would be like on Eglinton East, if done properly: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/12557-Videos-of-Light-Rail-RAPID-Transit. I'm thinking that even if Eglinton is brought back from the underground, it will keep the underground stop spacing to provide true rapid service.

 

[GenerationW]

This City also has to go ahead and build the Downtown Relief Line that we've been talking about since the 1980s. The construction of the DRL isn't even something that needs to be debated; everyone agrees that it is urgently needed and we just need the will to put shovels in the ground. Of course the DRL would need to be built from Eglinton going south to Union and back up to Eglinton (as opposed to going south from Dundas West to Union and back north to Pape as proposed in the Network 2011 plan), but if the line used LRT technology and nearby rail corridors it could be built for about $10 billion.


What do you guys think about this idea?

Most people believe a DRL would have to be HRT/subway due to how busy it would be right from its opening, but I take issue with part of your premise. Just about everyone on this forum agrees it's urgently needed, but most people in power don't share that opinion. Neither Ford or Miller made it a priority, and few (if any) downtown councilors have been talking up a DRL. And I'm not convinced they'll change their minds when York Region eventually pushes the Yonge extension through.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Moar subways???

Metrolinx is not directly accountable to Toronto voters. I want at least someone responsible for transit within my city to be accountable to me.

Deliberate mispelling. Thats what everyone on the streets is saying. More Subways. MX is not accountable but look where that has got us? Nothing for 30 years.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm new to this forum so forgive me for my ignorance.

Anyways, we need to stop the political blame game. It gets Toronto nowhere.

We need to reframe the transit debate in this city. For the past two decades we've focused on creating mediocre transit plans that give Torontonians second class trasnit for a cheap price (yes, Transit City is one of those plans). Toronto needs a bold new transit plan (something on the scale of the Bloor-Danforth line from the 1960s) to get the city's transit infrastructure where it needs to be. I personally believe that the Eglinton Crosstown needs to be a full east to west subway line with Toronto Rockets and actual subway stations. I understand that in many places along Eglinton there is not enough density to justify a subway at the moment, but remember that there wasn't much density along Bloor either when the Bloor-Danforth was built.

This City also has to go ahead and build the Downtown Relief Line that we've been talking about since the 1980s. The construction of the DRL isn't even something that needs to be debated; everyone agrees that it is urgently needed and we just need the will to put shovels in the ground. Of course the DRL would need to be built from Eglinton going south to Union and back up to Eglinton (as opposed to going south from Dundas West to Union and back north to Pape as proposed in the Network 2011 plan), but if the line used LRT technology and nearby rail corridors it could be built for about $10 billion.


What do you guys think about this idea?

I like. Welcome.

 

[GenerationW]

MX is not accountable but look where that has got us? Nothing for 30 years.

Nothing if you discount the SRT, North York Centre Stn, Downsview Stn, Sheppard line, 509 and 510 routes, countless station upgrades, Spadina extension in progress, etc.

Metrolinx doing all the planning wouldn't guarantee anything if the funding wasn't there.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Welcome to Urban Toronto

The thing with changing Eglinton to a full metro is that the plans and orders have been made for low floor trains with overhead wires. You would have to cancel and change the order, plus change the design of the line to support high floor metro trains. Not to mention, if it is to be integrated into the Scarborough RT metro trains can't handle the tight turns on the line.

I will agree that Transit City was second class, but LRT is far from that in reality. Here is a thread of examples of what LRT would be like on Eglinton East, if done properly: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/12557-Videos-of-Light-Rail-RAPID-Transit. I'm thinking that even if Eglinton is brought back from the underground, it will keep the underground stop spacing to provide true rapid service.

I did not mean to say that LRT was second class transit in my previous post. I'm a huge LRT advocate and I believe that it is the future of Toronto's transit system. I just don't believe that it is appropriate for the Eglinton Line. The LRT would just be a temporary fix and Eglinton would still need a real subway in another 20-30 years. However if LRT was properly designed with traffic signal priority and proper station spacing the Eglinton Line would be an excellent rapid transit line for the time being.

Regarding my original proposal, if the Downtown Relief LRT Line was built, the vehicles from the Eglinton Crosstown could be transferred to the DRL. That solves the problem of the cancellation fees for the light rail vehicles. Unfortunately the SRT probably cannot affordably be integrated into the Eglinton Subway line so the SRT would still need to be retrofitted for LRT technology. The one major problem I see with my idea is that the design Eglinton-Crosstown would need to be changed, but the extra costs would probably be worth it in the long term.

Another idea I have is to use the money saved from the cancellation Transit City in addition to the costs saved by building the Eglinton-Crosstown at grade to build the Downtown Relief LRT. Either way I think that the DRL should be Toronto's #2 priority (after Eglinton) and that it can be built within the next 10 years if politicians would dare to use common sense when it comes to transit planning.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Nothing if you discount the SRT, North York Centre Stn, Downsview Stn, Sheppard line, 509 and 510 routes, countless station upgrades, Spadina extension in progress, etc.

Metrolinx doing all the planning wouldn't guarantee anything if the funding wasn't there.

So two minor extensions, and some stops. Where is eglinton? Has sheppard been completed? The Vaughan extension does nothing for Toronto.

The political process is broken and you need to aceept it. Metrolinx is a provincial agency. It is much easier to give money to them then watch this circus in the the city right now.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Most people believe a DRL would have to be HRT/subway due to how busy it would be right from its opening, but I take issue with part of your premise. Just about everyone on this forum agrees it's urgently needed, but most people in power don't share that opinion. Neither Ford or Miller made it a priority, and few (if any) downtown councilors have been talking up a DRL. And I'm not convinced they'll change their minds when York Region eventually pushes the Yonge extension through.

I completely agree with you. Ideally an actual subway should be used for the DRL. I used an LRT in my proposal because it had a much better chance of being built. We all know that the politicians dont have the will to pay for REAL subways in Toronto, so I picked the next best thing.

And an extension of the Yonge line into York Region would be the third stupidest idea in Toronto transit history (after the Rob Ford Eglinton-Crosstown and SRT). All it would do is feed thousand of suburbanites into the already overcapacity Yonge line. Sometimes I wonder if politicians have any common sense.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If we can pin the cancelling/delaying of Sheppard from Don Mills to STC on Harris, then we can blame the cancelling/delaying of the Eglinton-Airport LRT and WWLRT on McGuinty as well.

Transit City might be stupid, but the cutbacks to Transit City weren't Miller's doing.

I personally think it's time to take the transit planning out of people like Miller and Ford's hands and into the hands of unelected transit snobs.

Couldn't agree with you more. Put us "transit snobs" back in control of the TTC and all of Toronto's transit woes will be solved in 10 years or less.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I completely agree with you. Ideally an actual subway should be used for the DRL. I used an LRT in my proposal because it had a much better chance of being built. We all know that the politicians dont have the will to pay for REAL subways in Toronto, so I picked the next best thing.

And an extension of the Yonge line into York Region would be the third stupidest idea in Toronto transit history (after the Rob Ford Eglinton-Crosstown and SRT). All it would do is feed thousand of suburbanites into the already overcapacity Yonge line. Sometimes I wonder if politicians have any common sense.

I would say the fifth but hey, it not like these people could not take Richmond Hill GO now right? I find it amazing that we are building subways are being but to VCC but we can't get anything done within the borders.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I would say the fifth but hey, it not like these people could not take Richmond Hill GO now right? I find it amazing that we are building subways are being but to VCC but we can't get anything done within the borders.

Welcome to the world of politics.

 

[Palma]

Most people believe a DRL would have to be HRT/subway due to how busy it would be right from its opening, but I take issue with part of your premise. Just about everyone on this forum agrees it's urgently needed, but most people in power don't share that opinion. Neither Ford or Miller made it a priority, and few (if any) downtown councilors have been talking up a DRL. And I'm not convinced they'll change their minds when York Region eventually pushes the Yonge extension through.

But why is this? Why do these downtown councillors not push it like the surburbans push subways. Its not like its going through residential houses