Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[xtremesniper]

I believe that Scarberian's point revolves around the interchangeability of subway extension trips with GO trips. He is saying that South York is highly integrated with communities on Yonge north of Bloor, therefore the best transit mode is one that has ample stops in between Highway 7 and downtown. As a result, the subway is better able to suit the needs of the Yonge corridor than GO.

However, because Mississauga is poorly integrated with intermediate communities along the Bloor Line, the typical commuter would be best served by a transit mode that stops in Mississauga, downtown, and as few intermediate stops as possible in between. For the Mississauga-Toronto corridor, GO is best able to serve the needs of the typical commuter.

The reason why the Yonge extension is required more so than the Bloor extension has nothing to do with actual ridership - we all know that Mississauga generates more transit trips than South York. However, the nature of travel patterns are such that a subway makes more sense in York Region, while the GO train makes more sense in Mississauga.

Missisauga might be best served by a subway or LRT along Hurontario that terminates at a GO Station that has frequent all day service. Whether or not the Hurontario subway connects to the Bloor line is inconsequential, so long the subway connects to a GO station that has frequent service.

Thank you for that explanation. I now know what you're talking about and I agree. It makes sense. I've always had 416ers say that people in York Region should use GO as their main transit service, not the TTC because supposedly the 416 taxpayers fund the TTC so York Region residents shouldn't be allowed to use their services. (Their explanation, not mine). It's frustrating.

 

[Amphibius]

I repeat...

I don't think anyone is irrationally up in arms about the VCC/RHC subway extensions just because they're in a different territory. It's about prioritizing transit goals and objectives. For many people it'd rank like a #5 after Queen/DRL, Eglinton, Scarborough and Mississauga lines/extensions. And this has everything to do with the higher population densities and poorer quality of service these areas are receiving why I think this.

 

[Jupiter]

You're not using any of these numbers right.

Density is irrelevent...what are the raw numbers of riders? They calculate these figures using methods like cute little 500m planning circles that are in no way indicative of real walking conditions and don't tell you what's beyond the 500m (or what's inside them...housing? jobs? retail? what?).

What about feeder bus riders? It's feeder bus riders, not walk-in riders, that fill the bulk of our subway lines. Why criticize Yonge & Steeles for not being dense enough? Even if no development occurs, everyone knows the station would see probably over 40K riders a day on day 1, due to a few very busy bus routes...do bus riders not count?

"Density" along Sheppard was always and still is at and east of Don Mills, not between Yonge and Don Mills (though it's slowly filling up).

If you're going to include the cost of rebuilding Yonge & Bloor (which is already dangerously crowded and warrants a solution) you might as well include the cost of a new nuclear plant to power the vehicles. Sorry, but the case for extending Yonge north of Finch is entirely unimpeachable and the fact that a DRL is also needed does not change anything...both can be built, it's *not* one or the other!

Density is far from irrelevant. There's a direct correlation between the density of stations, and the transit ridership of the neighbourhood surrounding it. The TTC has charts showing density vs. proportion of trips made by transit, and they are very much intertwined.

What about feeder bus routes? What about them? The number of new riders that will be obtained through buses no longer having to go down to Finch really isn't that high - the line is expected to add 4,200 new riders to the system when it opens. If you don't think the TTC and Metrolinx factored the buses into these projections, that's being rather naive.

And CAN both the DRL and the Yonge extension be built? There's only so much money, and there are many better options of what to do with it than extend the Yonge line. Your "slippery slope" argument of including the cost of a new nuclear plant is going a little far. There are things that are necessary for this such as ATO that is going to be put into place regardless. But if the DRL is built, it takes away 17,500 riders off the Yonge line south of Bloor from day one.

As for the question of ridership being too low to justify the line versus the added capacity, the issue is the Yonge line is currently just below or even at capacity depending on which metric you use. With the addition of new riders to the Yonge line regardless of the extension, something will probably have to be done. The point is if the Yonge line is built first, Y-B will HAVE to be expanded, whereas if the DRL is built first, we wouldn't have to waste a half a billion dollars on that.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

All due respect, but these arguments have been largely debunked here time and again.

I'll try to be succinct:
1) The Yonge Ext is not just about NEW riders. Even if the ridership stayed the same, you would be getting a lot of York Region people parking up near Hwy 7 instead of driving down to Finch. This also includes literally hundreds of buses a day, all off the road. those cars and buses not crossing Steeles is almost reason enough to build the thing.

2) Whatever the current density, there is MAJOR redevelopment planned north of Steeles. I've said it 10 times before but I'll say it once more: Yonge/7 is one of the growth nodes designated in Places to Grow. There definitely will be 10s of thousands of new residents moving into the area which is already a Go-Viva hub and will eventually include the 407 Transitway too.
I don't know how anyone with even a semblance of planning logic can justify stopping the subway at Finch or Steeles, less than 10km from one of the biggest transit hubs in the province.

3) I think a couple of people here have hit the nail on the head, showing why this is a win/win. If the line is succesful it allows the TTC to justify the DRL and Bloor renos. All those people bitching about hte DRL not happening need to remember Toronto DIDN'T WANT IT. If you want to see it happen one day, you better pray the "useless" Yonge extension gets built.
Given where both projects are at as of today, DRL-lovers should accept the ship has sailed. Explaining why it should be built instead of Yonge is about as useful as telling me what strategy some admiral should have employed in a 17th century naval battle.


Try looking a Googlemaps or something else without boundaries written on it. Then try to point to Finch and tell me why that's where the subway has to stop.

 

[realtycoon]

3) I think a couple of people here have hit the nail on the head, showing why this is a win/win. If the line is succesful it allows the TTC to justify the DRL and Bloor renos. All those people bitching about hte DRL not happening need to remember Toronto DIDN'T WANT IT. If you want to see it happen one day, you better pray the "useless" Yonge extension gets built.
Given where both projects are at as of today, DRL-lovers should accept the ship has sailed. Explaining why it should be built instead of Yonge is about as useful as telling me what strategy some admiral should have employed in a 17th century naval battle.


Try looking a Googlemaps or something else without boundaries written on it. Then try to point to Finch and tell me why that's where the subway has to stop.

You hit two great points:
1. Political Will: York Region, Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill are all 100% behind the Yonge Extension, putting resources, $, political support and are fighting for this to get built, as oppossed to bickering with one another.; Plus residents have shown a tendancy to vote based on issues, over party lines (Liberals and Cons have been voted in on all levels and will continue to be like that), thus it is desirable for the politicans to fight for the residents, as they know they will get voted out the next election, many Toronto politicans are so complacant, where it's the same NDP or Far Left Liberal that keeps getting the votes, so they do nothing for their residents of their riding/ward.
2. Finch is a HORRIBLE Place to end the subway. At least by bringing it to Hwy 7, there is the 407 and Go Transit, and it's one of the most central areas of the entire GTA, plus the intensification of Richmond Centre and Markham Centre will ensure ridership. Also, the amount of traffic going into 416 will drop off as many of the drivers to Finch are 905ers comming into 416 to help the economy of 416

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Density is far from irrelevant. There's a direct correlation between the density of stations, and the transit ridership of the neighbourhood surrounding it. The TTC has charts showing density vs. proportion of trips made by transit, and they are very much intertwined.

What about feeder bus routes? What about them? The number of new riders that will be obtained through buses no longer having to go down to Finch really isn't that high - the line is expected to add 4,200 new riders to the system when it opens. If you don't think the TTC and Metrolinx factored the buses into these projections, that's being rather naive.

And CAN both the DRL and the Yonge extension be built? There's only so much money, and there are many better options of what to do with it than extend the Yonge line. Your "slippery slope" argument of including the cost of a new nuclear plant is going a little far. There are things that are necessary for this such as ATO that is going to be put into place regardless. But if the DRL is built, it takes away 17,500 riders off the Yonge line south of Bloor from day one.

As for the question of ridership being too low to justify the line versus the added capacity, the issue is the Yonge line is currently just below or even at capacity depending on which metric you use. With the addition of new riders to the Yonge line regardless of the extension, something will probably have to be done. The point is if the Yonge line is built first, Y-B will HAVE to be expanded, whereas if the DRL is built first, we wouldn't have to waste a half a billion dollars on that.

The TTC can make as many charts as it wants showing "density" but in the absence of context density should not be turned into some kind of transit mantra. Does the figure even include students and shoppers and leisure trips? What are high mode share stations that are in dense areas dense with? Is the station closer to downtown where using transit is easy or in the suburbs where using transit is less easy? How is the area designed and laid out? McCowan is fairly dense but has a dismal mode share, while Donlands is far less dense but has a very high mode share. Saying a line is useful if stations have X density without providing any other context is not practical in any way, does not directly translate into riders, and is not at all a useful measure of the viability of a transit line. Is Wilson station not useful? There's certainly no density nearby. What about Warden?

It doesn't matter if a station like Yonge & Steeles sees not one single added resident or job or a single unit of added density since so many people will be funnelling in on buses. And, yes, when the population + jobs around a potential station is currently very low, it only takes a small amount of redevelopment to jack up the density figure by many times...if even a third of the Langstaff redevelopment near Bunker station gets built, density will go up probably a hundred fold.

The thing about slippery slopes is that once people begin arguing with them, as Giambrone and whoever else has done by tying all manner of other improvements to the Yonge extension (some of which are needed or desired either way) is that you do not get to choose where to stop along the slope...you either stay at the top and include nothing or ride it to the bottom and include everything. You need to realize how arbitrary and politicized such calculations are.

 

[xtremesniper]

Also, the amount of traffic going into 416 will drop off as many of the drivers to Finch are 905ers comming into 416 to help the economy of 416

Exactly. Not only that, but you'll also get much less people driving to the subway if the subway comes closer to them. I know too many people that just drive to Finch because 1. busing it usually takes too long from where they live, and 2. they don't want to pay the ridiculous double fare.

If the subway comes closer to home, they will have less reason to drive instead of just taking a bus to Yonge (or walking) and hopping on the subway. Granted, they'll likely still have to pay double fare, but at least we're half way there.

And the 416ers will see a dramatic drop in traffic in the area, guaranteed. Because currently they have almost 4000 people heading to Finch station just to park.

 

[Anth]

However, because Mississauga is poorly integrated with intermediate communities along the Bloor Line, the typical commuter would be best served by a transit mode that stops in Mississauga, downtown, and as few intermediate stops as possible in between. For the Mississauga-Toronto corridor, GO is best able to serve the needs of the typical commuter.

See, this is where I start to disagree. In a transit planning context, most forumers here always see Mississauga in a commuter-centric, downtown-oriented way, when in fact I would say it's far more integrated with western Toronto than it may appear at first glance. This integration is both evidenced and obscured by the enormous volume of car travel between the jurisdictions and poorly designed, time consuming bus routes with understandably low ridership. Geography also contributes to the purely psychological fragmentation of the area as the grid bends around the lake and Etobicoke Creek.

I don't think my personal experience is unusual, but growing up in Erin Mills in western Mississauga (nowhere near even Hurontario), I spent huge swaths of my childhood being shuttled to and from the Junction, High Park, Centennial, Sherway, Kipling, Mimico and so on. My neighbours worked for Metro Police, the TTC, the (old) City of Toronto and commuted to jobs both downtown and throughout the west end. "Welcome to Metro Toronto" was always just a sign on the side of the road and nothing more.

Perhaps one could argue that North Yonge is even more integrated, but that doesn't invalidate the idea of extending Bloor, regardless of where it stands on our long list of priorities. My problem with the response here over the years is that rather than looking at it as simply a matter of priority, it's summarily dismissed as ridiculous by those who then turn around and use the same arguments to support projects of lesser value (not Yonge necessarily). I'm thinking many of you need a very leisurely Saturday afternoon drive across Dundas and up Hurontario to get the point.

Neither the Milton line (which we'll be lucky to see electrified let alone regional rail-ified in our lifetimes) nor the proposed Dundas LRT will properly serve the area without multiple transfers or weird spurs (to, say, Sherway). But maybe we'll just have to live with that.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Perhaps one could argue that North Yonge is even more integrated, but that doesn't invalidate the idea of extending Bloor, regardless of where it stands on our long list of priorities. My problem with the response here over the years is that rather than looking at it as simply a matter of priority, it's summarily dismissed as ridiculous by those who then turn around and use the same arguments to support projects of lesser value (not Yonge necessarily). I'm thinking many of you need a very leisurely Saturday afternoon drive across Dundas and up Hurontario to get the point.

A Bloor extension might get a lot more traction if it wasn't invariably argued for in relation to other projects...does it not stand on its own merits? No one is saying Yonge should be extended because some other place is getting a transit line.

Also keep in mind that if both Hurontario and Dundas warrant higher order transit, how well can one subway line (a line that would likely run partly through the rail corridor) replace transit on both corridors?

 

[ellett44]

3) I think a couple of people here have hit the nail on the head, showing why this is a win/win. If the line is succesful it allows the TTC to justify the DRL and Bloor renos. All those people bitching about hte DRL not happening need to remember Toronto DIDN'T WANT IT. If you want to see it happen one day, you better pray the "useless" Yonge extension gets built.

Pretty much what I wrote a couple of posts ago. In a twist of irony the political will and campaigning of Vaughn/York Region etc, may actually yield a new subway in those areas AND in the city of Toronto. Who would have thought that it would take the 905's effort to get a new subway built in the 416??

 

[Anth]

A Bloor extension might get a lot more traction if it wasn't invariably argued for in relation to other projects...does it not stand on its own merits? No one is saying Yonge should be extended because some other place is getting a transit line.

Also keep in mind that if both Hurontario and Dundas warrant higher order transit, how well can one subway line (a line that would likely run partly through the rail corridor) replace transit on both corridors?

I think it does stand on its own merits, though it's true that it tends to be argued for in relation to other projects. Probably because it rarely comes up for discussion both here due to lack of interest and in government due to lack of political will.

As for serving both corridors, while going all the way to Square One would be nice but somewhat redundant for a stretch, the Bloor line could simply serve Dundas to Hurontario and then Hurontario could be served by a separate line provided it's sufficiently rapid. Doady tends to favour this solution on his maps, if I recall correctly.

 

[Transportfan]

Geography also contributes to the purely psychological fragmentation of the area as the grid bends around the lake and Etobicoke Creek.

Another thing is that the east-west arterials themselves are mostly different roads in Mississauga and Toronto. One issue with a subway extension is that MCC was built in the wrong place, along Burnhamthorpe, a street which basically goes nowhere in Toronto.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Just because there's disagreement about where the Bloor extension is run doesn't make it any less worthwhile than a Yonge extension. I support a Yonge extension. We need many subway extensions. Spadina to York U I fully support.

Not only are line extensions good, but new lines are good too. In fact, most would consider them better than extensions!

Maybe we could just have a giant splurge of building smaller subways (DRL East Section, Eglinton in the underground LRT portion, Queen from Leslie to Queensway, etc.) and then just continue making them bigger bit by bit, year by year.

 

[jaycola]

I am a little confused by this thread and all the negativity.
So many contradictions...

From top to Bottom from Newmarket to Toronto(and further north), Yonge is the heart of the communities it runs through.

Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all have tremendous plans for redevelopment of the Yonge Street corridor:
Gateway at Yonge and 7, Yonge and Steeles on the Markham and Vaughan sides as well as Old Thornhill and Downtown Richmond Hill.
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=7883, ="http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/newsce...esentation.pdf", http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/newsce...esentation.pdf,http://www.markham.ca/NR/rdonlyres/4...Mtg4_Staff.pdf
http://www.richmondhill.ca/documents/RH_OP_Downtown_Design_Report_2_LandUse.pdf

If the Yonge extention goes ahead and we see high density development between Finch and Hwy 7, similar to what we have seen in NYCC, which results in high levels of ridership, is this a positive or a negative?

These are precisely the types of developments that we require and if putting them on the subway makes them successful, urban communities, isn't that a good thing?

I get the sence that there is as much negativity for it's potential success as it's failure to attract ridership.

This is Yonge Street after all. The heart of Toronto and the GTA.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I am a little confused by this thread and all the negativity.
So many contradictions...

From top to Bottom from Newmarket to Toronto(and further north), Yonge is the heart of the communities it runs through.

Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all have tremendous plans for redevelopment of the Yonge Street corridor:
Gateway at Yonge and 7, Yonge and Steeles on the Markham and Vaughan sides as well as Old Thornhill and Downtown Richmond Hill.
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=7883, ="http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/newsce...esentation.pdf", http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/newsce...esentation.pdf,http://www.markham.ca/NR/rdonlyres/4...Mtg4_Staff.pdf
http://www.richmondhill.ca/documents/RH_OP_Downtown_Design_Report_2_LandUse.pdf

If the Yonge extention goes ahead and we see high density development between Finch and Hwy 7, similar to what we have seen in NYCC, which results in high levels of ridership, is this a positive or a negative?

These are precisely the types of developments that we require and if putting them on the subway makes them successful, urban communities, isn't that a good thing?

I get the sence that there is as much negativity for it's potential success as it's failure to attract ridership.

This is Yonge Street after all. The heart of Toronto and the GTA.

Richmond Hill is why the Yonge Extension needs to be less of a subway extension and more of a improving service on Viva Blue. In 15 to 20 years, Richmond Hill will actually have a lot of development going on in the Yonge corridor, and Viva Blue up to Major Mackenzie or even further could easily have ridership for a subway.

I think we should spend the time up to that (around) 15 year mark building new subway in the core, and then do a Yonge Extension when it can be built all the way up to the centre of Richmond Hill. Eventually, a Yonge Subway all the way to Newmarket will actually be plausible. To all of the people here who are saying there isn't ridership to justify a subway to York Region, just take a drive up Yonge St or take the Viva Blue bus. There's actually more here than you think