Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[WislaHD]

If I were the province of Ontario, I would combine the DRL into GO-RER Richmond Hill service and announce the Yonge North extension. This is perhaps the reason why the province is not including Richmond Hill RER in its GO-RER announcements, nor the funding for the vital flood-relief on the line south of Danforth.

I am imagining presenting a choice to Toronto, either commit to funding and get something like Gweed's post here, or don't commit our fair share and they'll go with just the Don Branch alignment for Richmond Hill. (page 9 here)

 

[nfitz]

If I were the province of Ontario, I would combine the DRL into GO-RER Richmond Hill service and announce the Yonge North extension. This is perhaps the reason why the province is not including Richmond Hill RER in its GO-RER announcements, nor the funding for the vital flood-relief on the line south of Danforth.

I don't see a realistic way of making that work, and providing an effective alternate to the existing subway that would encourage people to transfer. Any transfer at Broadview and Castle Frank is going to make a LOT of walking and time. Then you arrive at Union Station too far south for the majority of people transferring at Yonge-Bloor. Finally, you'd need the RER running every 5 minutes. Unless you were to conceive an RER that did run every 5 minutes, with new platforms under something Wellington Street, and a new tunnel to somewhere under Danforth, that then extends (some trains at least) north to intersect the Richmond Hill line, then it's not going to happen.

But in reality, then you aren't so much building GO-RER, but a subway line with some service that goes for miles north up the Richmond Hill line. Which does happen in some cities ... Line 1 in Seoul comes to mind ...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Why? If the universe ended at Steeles, they wouldn't build a station at Steeles and people could walk to Cummer from there. Perhaps pay a share of a cost of a bus terminal at Steeles.

*applause*

Or, we could just add the one station at Cummer and people could walk from Steeles to there! Or leave it as is, stop all the buses at [checks GoogleMaps] Wedgewood, and have people walk to Finch from there, since we've determined that optimally integrating all the transit at a single hub is less than optimal and, in fact, of negligible benefit to Toronto.

Seriously, York Region should pay its fare share and Toronto its fair share. The Spadina model (where 60% of the line is in 416 and 40% in 905, and the munis are paying accordingly) seems perfectly reasonable. All you have to do is look at Toronto's secondary plan for that area to see they'll be getting plenty of new taxpayers chipping in. (There's also no reason both municipalities can't use DCs, rather than taxes or debt, to pay a good chunk of it.)

If I were the province of Ontario, I would combine the DRL into GO-RER Richmond Hill service and announce the Yonge North extension. This is perhaps the reason why the province is not including Richmond Hill RER in its GO-RER announcements, nor the funding for the vital flood-relief on the line south of Danforth.

I am imagining presenting a choice to Toronto, either commit to funding and get something like Gweed's post here, or don't commit our fair share and they'll go with just the Don Branch alignment for Richmond Hill. (page 9 here)

I stand to be corrected but I believe the reasons RH didn't get the full RER treatment are infrastructure-related. Namely, parts of the line are owned by CN and the lower sections need to be regraded due to flooding issues. This is yet one (or two) more reasons that people who think the RH line can simply replace a subway are mistaken.

Also, just to add, Metrolinx is also doing its own Relief study, looking at various measures or combination of measures (including but not at all limited to the DRL) that will relieve traffic on the Yonge line. It's possible they could come up with things which, in tandem with the opening of the Spadina line (eventually) and SmartTrack and RER make it possible to move on the extension without the DRL, at least temporarily. (In the long term, obviously the DRL is needed. Should have been built decades ago, probably.)

 

[WislaHD]

I don't see a realistic way of making that work, and providing an effective alternate to the existing subway that would encourage people to transfer. Any transfer at Broadview and Castle Frank is going to make a LOT of walking and time. Then you arrive at Union Station too far south for the majority of people transferring at Yonge-Bloor. Finally, you'd need the RER running every 5 minutes. Unless you were to conceive an RER that did run every 5 minutes, with new platforms under something Wellington Street, and a new tunnel to somewhere under Danforth, that then extends (some trains at least) north to intersect the Richmond Hill line, then it's not going to happen.

Ideally, I would go with Gweed's proposal. Tunnel between Lawrence and Donlands Station. Have the red line in his map provide 7-10 minute service serving local stations along the Richmond Hill corridor with the green line being the express route (with 15 minute frequency) that extends beyond Richmond Hill Centre. Send the green line to Union and the red line under Queen in a Downtown Tunnel.

Have SmartTrack from the Stouffville line head into the Downtown Tunnel after Gerrard Square as well. The two lines combined would provide your 5 minute frequency in the downtown tunnel.

This alternative can certainly done at a similar if not cheaper price-tag to the DRL, and gives us a DRL that pretty much extends to RHC.

But in reality, then you aren't so much building GO-RER, but a subway line with some service that goes for miles north up the Richmond Hill line. Which does happen in some cities ... Line 1 in Seoul comes to mind ...

Semantics at the end of the day, isn't it?

If it pleases you, we can call the green line on Gweed's map Richmond Hill GO-RER, and call the red line the second SmartTrack line.

 

[BMO]

That might well be true.

But the bottom line is that York needs this far more than Toronto does. Most in that corridor can just walk to Finch station, or take a short bus trip.

Toronto has little capacity left to borrow money for yet another subway extension.

They need to play a little poker here. Show no interest in the line whatsoever. Imply that if it's going to be built, that Toronto won't be providing any money, because it's not a Toronto priority.

The line is inevitable. Toronto needs to make sure they aren't paying anything for it, or at worst, simply contributing 1/3 the cost of Cummer station.

What you say is true, however there are very few Torontonians who give a crap about this 2km stretch of Yonge Street. I'd be flabbergasted if we see any kind of outcry from Torontonians if Yonge North was canned.

And why would they care? It's a relatively small stretch of Yonge Street in the northern end of the city. The amount of busses on Yonge and Steeles in inconsequential for all but a tiny fraction of Toronto residents. Nobody in Toronto but a few urban development enthusiasts care if this area is redeveloped. It really doesn't matter.

Not trying to deny what you're both saying, but I'm wondering if you've ever actually driven or taken transit from Finch Station during the height of rush-hour to catch ANY of the buses at the station to get to your final Toronto destination? I'm sure riders of the 60, 42, and 53 would really disagree with your sentiments. I've taken transit around the world and having to take the bus from Finch has got to definitely be one of the 9 circles of hell I'm sure of it. And I regularly have to take the Queen streetcar daily during crush loads. It almost seems sophisticated compared to what thousands of people have to endure every single day at finch (I'm sure other parts of the city too), so please don't say that York Region stands to benefit more from this project. It's not just about congestion on the subway south of Bloor there's congestion at the other end as well.

 

[nfitz]

Seriously, York Region should pay its fare share and Toronto its fair share.

Perhaps that's where it should end up. But that shouldn't be the opening bid. The opening bid is ... Toronto doesn't need this subway. You want it, you pay for it. We have higher priorities and an approaching debt limit.

If you want to pay $20,000 for a car, you don't offer the dealer $20,000 for a car.

Not trying to deny what you're both saying, but I'm wondering if you've ever actually driven or taken transit from Finch Station during the height of rush-hour to catch ANY of the buses at the station to get to your final Toronto destination?

Bus only lanes.

However, I've always said the subway should be extended. I'm just trying to make sure that Toronto doesn't pay for something that they don't have to, given how little debt limit is available. With the amount of money that needs to be dropped on the DRL and other projects, it's best to try and not commit to spending money that the province may well pick up with a bit of politics.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Perhaps that's where it should end up. But that shouldn't be the opening bid. The opening bid is ... Toronto doesn't need this subway. You want it, you pay for it. We have higher priorities and an approaching debt limit.

You know, you may be right. I like to hope/think that this isn't actually how things get built but looking at Toronto's record on infrastructure construction, it just might be.
What SHOULD happen is that Metrolinx is given real transit planning authority and revenue tools that directly fund its work. Then they fund the damned thing (with some muni contributions, even fed $ would be nice) and properly prioritize the infrastructure needed to sustain it (e.g. ensuring the DRL is also built within 5 years or something).

As I said, debt limit doesn't have to be Toronto's only funding source. Indeed, on that measure York is probably in a worse position. There are development charges and other ways to pay. I guess I'd just say that looking at a map and looking at the plans in place and the travel patterns in the city's north, the extension is obviously needed. I totally agree there's a "catch" in that we have "Toronto's" infrastructure needed for a project that also helps other municipalities but that's mostly because we've been in a mindset that everyone takes care of their damned selves and GO is for helping those other poor fools who cross borders. A properly funded Metrolinx should provide operating funds to TTC and any line that crosses a muni border (there aren't bound to be many, at least not subways) should be funded accordingly, IMO. I guess we can quibble about what's "fair" for Toronto to pay, but we certainly agree on the principle.

I understand that regional funding not the 2015 reality but I also think there's no reason it can't become one within the timeframe of a subway being planned and built. I kind of think it has to be, or we're not going to make a lot of progress as a region.

Bus only lanes.

So, the answer to the "have you ever been to Finch?" question was "no."

I forget the exact number but the number of buses that travel along Yonge, from Steeles to Finch every hour is in the HUNDREDS. A bus lane is not tenable. North44's wacky idea for an LRT would be a bare minimum of suitable infrastructure, and it would be at capacity very quickly. The bus lanes do run in HOV lanes, actually, but that's obviously not the same.

I also hope people to understand how this tricky situation was created. YRT was going to build bus lanes, as was TTC on this stretch. It was the province that effectively told them to stop because they were funding the subway. That was 8 years ago now crucial infrastructure in a heavily traveled corridor is in limbo. Everyone should want to see that resolved quickly and appropriately.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Just a separate post, cuz I just saw this come across Twitter - it's the cost breakdown for the Scarborough line.
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.EX5.1

Seeing that it costs pretty much exactly what the Yonge line would makes me swallow hard but it's the city breakdown that's interesting. They're funding $165M out of DCs. I expect a Yonge line would produce even higher DC revenue (at least proportionally), so it's at least interesting to consider as what funding for the Yonge extension would look like. Bear in mind, of course, York Region would be covering 50%+ of the municipal share.

 

[44 North]

But I want you to know that I respect you looked up my eight years (has it really been that long?) of UT posting. You're the one coming to the thread bathed in ignorance. Not so long ago, you hadn't even seen the renderings of RHC and Langstaff, rambling on and on about the LRT that exists in your mind with no concept of the actual plans in place.

None of that is true. And for the record I never went out of my way to read yours, or anyone’s past posts.

I was aware of YR’s plans when they were presented way back when in 09. But my assumption since was that things a) somewhat fell off the radar, and b) were to be significantly altered or brought down to earth. Considering it’s now 2015, the subway still hasn’t started (and all talk about staging and financing seems to be theoretical), there are still no precinct plans, and ongoing changes and amendments to site plans (e.g Parkland Dedication, like we talked about in another thread) will undoubtedly alter the vision presented - it’d appear these assumptions were kinda on the mark. This is why I don’t think it’s apt to show a preliminary render at this stage. Major changes can and will occur.

And I still stand by my opinion that a grade-separate LRT / light metro would be more optimal for the Yonge corridor instead of the actual plan. There are very few multi-billion dollar all-underground heavy rail subway lines/extensions that I support - which obviously is a personal opinion. As well, existing ridership along the Yonge corridor north of Steeles is actually relatively low compared to the 40+ corridors/surface routes in TO with higher ridership. The projections for YN's YR section is significantly based off development which doesn’t exist, and potentially won’t exist as promised

Given the level of actual research I've done on this project, how long I've lived along Steeles Avenue and taken transit in the area, well, I can understand how that would seem "fallacious" or "childish" to you, much the same way my smartphone would seem like magic to a primitive civilization.

Okay. But your "research" and knowledge of Markham is not what I was referring to when I used those terms.

 

[nfitz]

You know, you may be right. I like to hope/think that this isn't actually how things get built but looking at Toronto's record on infrastructure construction, it just might be.

Look at the recent Hurontario announcement. During the election, the candidates were criticized for assuming that the province would pay 100% of the bill. Had they started talking about Mississauga paying some, then Mississauga would now be paying some.

So, the answer to the "have you ever been to Finch?" question was "no."

Given I've previously posted that I used to live near Finch station (on Willowdale .. slightly closer to North York Centre), I didn't think I had to answer that.

I forget the exact number but the number of buses that travel along Yonge, from Steeles to Finch every hour is in the HUNDREDS. A bus lane is not tenable. North44's wacky idea for an LRT would be a bare minimum of suitable infrastructure, and it would be at capacity very quickly. The bus lanes do run in HOV lanes, actually, but that's obviously not the same.

I was talking about TTC buses IF THE CITY ENDED AT STEELES. There wouldn't be hundreds of buses in this scenario. The test is who should be paying for subway. I'm not advocating for either bus lanes or LRT on Yonge. I'm not proposing bus lanes. I'm simply saying that there's really no city need for the subway to extend further than Finch, in terms of who should be paying for it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

And I still stand by my opinion that a grade-separate LRT / light metro would be more optimal for the Yonge corridor instead of the actual plan. There are very few multi-billion dollar all-underground heavy rail subway lines/extensions that I support - which obviously is a personal opinion. As well, existing ridership along the Yonge corridor north of Steeles is actually relatively low compared to the 40+ corridors/surface routes in TO with higher ridership. The projections for YN's YR section is significantly based off development which doesn’t exist, and potentially won’t exist as promised

I'll tell you what: I'll meet you half way and bury the hatchet. I think you're wrong and I think it's a highly improbable project at this point BUT if the province suddenly announced they were funding an LRT from Finch to 7, it wouldn't be the worst thing ever at this point. I think it will quickly be at capacity and I sincerely think it would be short-changing the development potential of the corridor and creating an unnecessary transfer but it's better than BRT and it's better than the black hole of transit we're now stuck.

I was talking about TTC buses IF THE CITY ENDED AT STEELES. There wouldn't be hundreds of buses in this scenario. The test is who should be paying for subway. I'm not advocating for either bus lanes or LRT on Yonge. I'm not proposing bus lanes. I'm simply saying that there's really no city need for the subway to extend further than Finch, in terms of who should be paying for it.

No sarcasm or anything - this is just a bit jumbled. I think you mean if the SUBWAY ended at Steeles? So, I think you're saying that, assuming the city was effectively an island unto itself, there's a benefit to them to extend the border at Steeles, get all the buses off the road etc. but that given the costs, it's not really worth them spending the money to "help" others and might as well just stay at Finch?

I'm not really sure. Anyway, I get the simple argument: Toronto taxpayers shouldn't foot the bill for a subway that mostly helps another municipality. I've probably offered counter-arguments numerous times but I guess the simplest is that, while there is certainly a logic to that, it ignores that the TTC exists (I think?) to serve its riders and many of those riders are already coming from outside Toronto, especially from this particular area. Thus, extending the subway (or an LRT, Northy!) is bringing RT to the riders that already exist and promoting development that will bring new riders. The border is the rub, or more to the point, how it affects funding. So, TTC already serves York Region riders but it's annoying for them to access and I totally agree with anyone who says that if the subway is going to cross a border, the funding (both operating and capital) should recognize that. But purely in terms of how people travel in this area, the extension remains a logical move to make.

 

[nfitz]

No sarcasm or anything - this is just a bit jumbled. I think you mean if the SUBWAY ended at Steeles? So, I think you're saying that, assuming the city was effectively an island unto itself, there's a benefit to them to extend the border at Steeles, get all the buses off the road etc. but that given the costs, it's not really worth them spending the money to "help" others and might as well just stay at Finch?

No, I mean if the city ended at Steeles (as a test as to who should pay the extension north of Finch).

Not, it's not the case, but why would you bid against yourself?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

No, I mean if the city ended at Steeles (as a test as to who should pay the extension north of Finch).

Not, it's not the case, but why would you bid against yourself?

Ah, well, it's a confusing hypothetical. I think the feds, province and both munis should pay for it and, all things being equal, Toronto would be a minority contributor. I guess you might "bid against yourself" to serve your customers, not all of whom live adjacent to your lines. But customer-orientation has never been a hallmark of TTC (or transit generally, around here) so that doesn't hold much water. And you're right that "because it will encourage transit-oriented development in York Region," isn't going to convince them either, even though it's obviously "a good thing" and gives them more customers.

But this is really all just my point that the overall system of how things are funded and run is obsolete or otherwise incompatible with transportation realities. I don't know that I advocate uploading TTC to the province, for example, but it's fair to say that IF Line 1 was owned and operated by Metrolinx (and, therefore, funded regionally), we wouldn't be having these discussions. No one would dispute it make sense to terminate at Highway 7 rather than Finch or Steeles. So it boils down to a 416/905 of thing, which strikes me as a replication of the Rob Fordesque Old Toronto vs. Inner Suburbs dichotomy that continues to exist. In both cases, I think governance exacerbates unnecessary division. That's my longwinded, deep thought for the day.

 

[salsa]

I'll tell you what: I'll meet you half way and bury the hatchet. I think you're wrong and I think it's a highly improbable project at this point BUT if the province suddenly announced they were funding an LRT from Finch to 7, it wouldn't be the worst thing ever at this point. I think it will quickly be at capacity and I sincerely think it would be short-changing the development potential of the corridor and creating an unnecessary transfer but it's better than BRT and it's better than the black hole of transit we're now stuck.

TJ, the problem with the Yonge corridor is that there is no hydro corridor, rail corridor or highway median that's conveniently closeby enough for 44 North to shove a surface transit line onto, therefore we'll just have to make do with his LRT on Yonge St. Thank goodness our predecessors back then had the vision to build the Yonge subway and Bloor-danforth subway, an investment that continues to bring endless benefits for us today. Otherwise we'd have a surface subway along the CP freight tracks instead of the BD line, or a surface subway on the Barrie line instead of the University-Spadina subway. Such an inferior transit system would never have been envied by other cities 30 years ago, but sadly some people believe it's not our job to do the same favour for our future children that was done for us, no matter how strong the business case is.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Oh, and it's pretty rich that no one I ever heard raised concerns about THAT new subway causing capacity concerns, particularly at Bloor/Yonge. That's for two reasons: 1) It's in Toronto and doesn't go to some other municipality 2) It won't be as "beneficial" to the region (ie spur intensification) the way the Yonge line would, which is to say it won't generate enough new ridership to cause capacity concerns. That's how we measure good transit planning in the GTA, I guess.

Umm... plenty of people have brought up the issues of B-Y capacity concerns, reading the SSE.

And the University of Toronto recently released a report, slamming the SSE because of its low intensification potential.