Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Council is under that delusion. The truth is it only depends on when funding comes through.

Not just council. Metrolinx too states that it needs to be phased in with the DRL and other improvements at Yonge and Finch:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/nextwave/Fact_Sheet_Yonge_North_Subway_EN.pdf

I can't believe there are still people in the GTA who still believe this will be built in full before the DRL. This project is dormant for now, and with the expanded GO might take forever.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I thought it was hard set that the City's focus for the DRL is the section between St Andrew and Pape. Everything outside of that is Metrolinx territory (and probably unrelated to the City/TTC Relief Line).

Re: my +$4bn estimate. I think that's an apt number to use. If the project were to use, say, 2017 dollars. Wouldn't $4bn seem about right?

And this is why people from the suburbs keeps slamming the DRL though. How are we supposed to get funding for this stubway! It should be Science Centre to Dundas West or Weston.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

TTC is under no obligation to operate the thing. Give that this extension will push Line 1 to 2/3 of route capacity at Finch Station, it's not inconceivable that the TTC would refuse to sign off on this.

First of all, TTC did sign off on it, subject to conditions. Everyone forgets this is a council-approved project. Anyway, that 2/3 capacity thing is totally out of thin air, certainly on opening day it's absurd. I totally agree there need to be downstream improvements to facilitate the thing but if it were magically approved tomorrow and opened in 2023 the main thing you'd notice is fewer boardings at Finch as those are distributed to the northern stations. (And, correspondingly, hundreds of buses each hour off the road.) It will 'unlock' a lot of development potential but that will take time.

I can't believe there are still people in the GTA who still believe this will be built in full before the DRL. This project is dormant for now, and with the expanded GO might take forever.

Dormant is relative. It has a complete EA, it's approved (again, subject to conditions) by City Council and is on Metrolinx's "next wave" of projects, 2 of which just got the green light. That's more than you can say about pretty much everything else on the radar. I don't think it's happening tomorrow but I also don't buy it's fallen off the map. As for the expanded GO, it's relevant in terms of how much funding it's eaten up. In terms of the plans that Markham, York Region, Richmond Hill, Metrolinx and the Province of Ontario have for the transit hub there, the impact in Richmond Hill Centre is extremely minimal, at least in the first wave announced last week.

There is a great irony that DRL is this holy grail for Toronto now, almost entirely because of the proposed Yonge extension. Indeed, you can tell how AMAZINGLY important it is to Toronto by the fact that since it came to the fore they've approved a pointless subway to Scarborough and are now looking at SmartTrack.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Dormant is relative. It has a complete EA, it's approved (again, subject to conditions) by City Council and is on Metrolinx's "next wave" of projects, 2 of which just got the green light. That's more than you can say about pretty much everything else on the radar. I don't think it's happening tomorrow but I also don't buy it's fallen off the map. As for the expanded GO, it's relevant in terms of how much funding it's eaten up. In terms of the plans that Markham, York Region, Richmond Hill, Metrolinx and the Province of Ontario have for the transit hub there, the impact in Richmond Hill Centre is extremely minimal, at least in the first wave announced last week.

There is a great irony that DRL is this holy grail for Toronto now, almost entirely because of the proposed Yonge extension. Indeed, you can tell how AMAZINGLY important it is to Toronto by the fact that since it came to the fore they've approved a pointless subway to Scarborough and are now looking at SmartTrack.

I don't disagree but...no one is pushing this. Not even York Region. Or Markham or Vaughan. That's a problem if you support this. The province was supposed to kick in funding, where is it? I really think they are going to try to use the expanded GO as an excuse to forget this or only bring the subway to Steeles. This subway should have been built before the Vaughan Extension.

 

[BMO]

I don't disagree but...no one is pushing this. Not even York Region. Or Markham or Vaughan. That's a problem if you support this. The province was supposed to kick in funding, where is it? I really think they are going to try to use the expanded GO as an excuse to forget this or only bring the subway to Steeles. This subway should have been built before the Vaughan Extension.

pretty sure York regional council as well as the three municipalities of Richmond Hill, Markham, and Vaughan all approved the subway in council and have thrown their support for it. They've done the zoning along the corridor to embrace Transit oriented development (nothing short of impressive considering the corridor is split three-ways meaning there had to be some form of coordination between three different governments) and have done the leg work formulating a VIVA Next system that will connect and integrate with a Yonge Subway (still shown on all the proposed future maps). I honestly question where you get this notion that nobody supports it?

FYI before the subway was even talked about they were going to build a dedicated ROW for buses along Yonge south of HWY 7 to Finch but decided to save the money for a subway extension that had been placed in Metrolinx phase 1 projects. I really don't understand what more you expect them to do to show that they support the project? Get a few more people to constantly complain about it's lack of funding on Twitter?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

pretty sure York regional council as well as the three municipalities of Richmond Hill, Markham, and Vaughan all approved the subway in council and have thrown their support for it. They've done the zoning along the corridor to embrace Transit oriented development (nothing short of impressive considering the corridor is split three-ways meaning there had to be some form of coordination between three different governments) and have done the leg work formulating a VIVA Next system that will connect and integrate with a Yonge Subway (still shown on all the proposed future maps). I honestly question where you get this notion that nobody supports it?

FYI before the subway was even talked about they were going to build a dedicated ROW for buses along Yonge south of HWY 7 to Finch but decided to save the money for a subway extension that had been placed in Metrolinx phase 1 projects. I really don't understand what more you expect them to do to show that they support the project? Get a few more people to constantly complain about it's lack of funding on Twitter?

All that was years ago though. I'm talking since wynne go back in. No one has said anything. Yeah I would like more complaints on Twitter, at least it shows some people still care.

 

[salsa]

this extension provides very little benefit to the City of Toronto, so I don't see why Council would okay it if the TTC said no to it.

So you're saying it's of little benefit to Toronto that:
- Thousands of buses a day will get off the street
- The insane traffic at Yonge & Steeles will be improved
- A number of TTC bus routes will be shortened
- Redevelopment of ugly strip malls north of Finch can finally happen
- The YRT terminal can be converted to greenspace, and the hydro corridor bike trail extended
- Toronto residents like me will have a faster commute to their jobs in York Region, so that they don't have to move out of the city

 

[nfitz]

So you're saying it's of little benefit to Toronto that:
- Thousands of buses a day will get off the street
- The insane traffic at Yonge & Steeles will be improved
- A number of TTC bus routes will be shortened
- Redevelopment of ugly strip malls north of Finch can finally happen
- The YRT terminal can be converted to greenspace, and the hydro corridor bike trail extended
- Toronto residents like me will have a faster commute to their jobs in York Region, so that they don't have to move out of the city

That might well be true.

But the bottom line is that York needs this far more than Toronto does. Most in that corridor can just walk to Finch station, or take a short bus trip.

Toronto has little capacity left to borrow money for yet another subway extension.

They need to play a little poker here. Show no interest in the line whatsoever. Imply that if it's going to be built, that Toronto won't be providing any money, because it's not a Toronto priority.

The line is inevitable. Toronto needs to make sure they aren't paying anything for it, or at worst, simply contributing 1/3 the cost of Cummer station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So you're saying it's of little benefit to Toronto that:
- Thousands of buses a day will get off the street
- The insane traffic at Yonge & Steeles will be improved
- A number of TTC bus routes will be shortened
- Redevelopment of ugly strip malls north of Finch can finally happen
- The YRT terminal can be converted to greenspace, and the hydro corridor bike trail extended
- Toronto residents like me will have a faster commute to their jobs in York Region, so that they don't have to move out of the city

What you say is true, however there are very few Torontonians who give a crap about this 2km stretch of Yonge Street. I'd be flabbergasted if we see any kind of outcry from Torontonians if Yonge North was canned.

And why would they care? It's a relatively small stretch of Yonge Street in the northern end of the city. The amount of busses on Yonge and Steeles in inconsequential for all but a tiny fraction of Toronto residents. Nobody in Toronto but a few urban development enthusiasts care if this area is redeveloped. It really doesn't matter.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That might well be true.

But the bottom line is that York needs this far more than Toronto does. Most in that corridor can just walk to Finch station, or take a short bus trip.

Toronto has little capacity left to borrow money for yet another subway extension.

They need to play a little poker here. Show no interest in the line whatsoever. Imply that if it's going to be built, that Toronto won't be providing any money, because it's not a Toronto priority.

The line is inevitable. Toronto needs to make sure they aren't paying anything for it, or at worst, simply contributing 1/3 the cost of Cummer station.

I hope that there isn't an expectation that Toronto will be paying for this. This project doesn't benefit Toronto taxpayers, so I don't see why that municipality would be paying for it.

I agree that Toronto should pay for at most 1/3 of Cummer (probably around $70 mil). Anything more than that and I'd want this extension scrapped.

 

[salsa]

What you say is true, however there are very few Torontonians who give a crap about this 2km stretch of Yonge Street. I'd be flabbergasted if we see any kind of outcry from Torontonians if Yonge North was canned.

And why would they care? It's a relatively small stretch of Yonge Street in the northern end of the city. The amount of busses on Yonge and Steeles in inconsequential for all but a tiny fraction of Toronto residents. Nobody in Toronto but a few urban development enthusiasts care if this area is redeveloped. It really doesn't matter.

When you say very few Torontonians, you're talking about roughly 30% of the Yonge subway ridership north of Bloor that originate at Finch station and it's surrounding areas. A station that's almost as busy as Union subway station.

 

[nfitz]

I hope that there isn't an expectation that Toronto will be paying for this. This project doesn't benefit Toronto taxpayers, so I don't see why that municipality would be paying for it.

I don't think there is an expectation. But if Toronto politicians started promising and hyping this, the expectation would grow. Best to say little to nothing.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I hope that there isn't an expectation that Toronto will be paying for this. This project doesn't benefit Toronto taxpayers, so I don't see why that municipality would be paying for it.

I agree that Toronto should pay for at most 1/3 of Cummer (probably around $70 mil). Anything more than that and I'd want this extension scrapped.

This whole line of thinking irked me too, so well done those who called TigerMaster on it. Maybe "York" needs it more than "Toronto," if I agree they are two totally different unrelated things. The idea that it is of little benefit to Toronto, however, is absurd. It may be a relatively short stretch of Yonge Street but there's still probably more redevelopment potential there than along the proposed Scarborough line. (Oh, and it's pretty rich that no one I ever heard raised concerns about THAT new subway causing capacity concerns, particularly at Bloor/Yonge. That's for two reasons: 1) It's in Toronto and doesn't go to some other municipality 2) It won't be as "beneficial" to the region (ie spur intensification) the way the Yonge line would, which is to say it won't generate enough new ridership to cause capacity concerns. That's how we measure good transit planning in the GTA, I guess.)

As Salsa said, the buses and better regional transit integration are obvious benefits, as is the new development, as is making it easier for TORONTO workers to get to their jobs, even if they've committed the crime of living 1 or 2 km beyond the city limits. (And, shockingly, some people go the other way too.)


As always, it's comic to read some people saying how little it will benefit Toronto and others saying it will be 2/3 full at Finch very quickly. Who are these people at Finch? Are they Toronto residents? Are they all York Region foreigners? What's the breakdown at Finch today? Are we checking passports? And if they're going south on trains at Finch in the morning, might one construe they are providing a benefit, economic or otherwise to Toronto?

Anyway, I frequently have to ride YRT to Finch Station and as it crosses Steeles, my bus leaves TORONTO residents standing at stops, waiting for TTC buses, because YRT isn't allowed to pick them up, even though there are plenty of seats.Is that beneficial to them? That's a metaphor for our entire transit network and that's not how a "world class" city-region operates. Opening your mind to realize that TORONTO isn't an abstract line within which people happen to pay taxes to a different place to people on the other side of the line is a good start; because that's about the only difference between them.

EDIT: TO RESPOND ALSO TOO...

I don't disagree but...no one is pushing this. Not even York Region. Or Markham or Vaughan. That's a problem if you support this. The province was supposed to kick in funding, where is it? I really think they are going to try to use the expanded GO as an excuse to forget this or only bring the subway to Steeles. This subway should have been built before the Vaughan Extension.

It would be very naive to think that because you aren't hearing about it, it's not going on. I assure you, the Mayor of Markham doesn't bump into Kathleen Wynne at a supermarket without mentioning the Yonge line. They are pushing it very hard with her and at Metrolinx (and, I presume, with the Vaughan MPP who happens to be Transpo Minister).

And I already said it twice but if they were going to use expanded GO as an excuse to delay this line, they would have provided more service to RH; they didn't. (They did provide MORE, but not all-day, 2-way, which would be required to make that argument, or something close to it.)

Indeed, the irony is that SmartTrack (and RER, generally) undermines Toronto's argument the DRL is needed before this subway can be built.

 

[Edward Skira]

I agree that Toronto should pay for at most 1/3 of Cummer (probably around $70 mil). Anything more than that and I'd want this extension scrapped.

Toronto should also pay part of the costs for a Steeles station.

 

[nfitz]

Toronto should also pay part of the costs for a Steeles station.

Why? If the universe ended at Steeles, they wouldn't build a station at Steeles and people could walk to Cummer from there. Perhaps pay a share of a cost of a bus terminal at Steeles.