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Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

Jaye101 said:
St. Clair was a ROW early in the last century, the only reason why it doesn't work as well now is the accommodations made for the left turn lanes and the centre poles. Period. If neither were in the plan the avenue would work better and would be far more aesthetically pleasing.
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How do you expect traffic to move with only one real traffic lane and no left turn lane? It's obvious you've never driven a car. The left turn lanes were an absolute necessity. They couldn't elminate street parking, and so there you have it. St. Clair needed to be 4 lanes in each direction pre-ROW for it to work.
 
What they should have done is kept 4 through lanes and forced left turning cars to make 3 right turns instead, where space was tight. As it is those left lanes are short.
 
The 512 carries more people on that street than the road does through the majority of the length.

"The left turn lanes are an absolute necessity." Dude, this isn't Mississauga, I don't see many people complaining about their absence elsewhere in the city. I have no clue why St. Clair would be any different. In any case, they should have had more incentive to eliminate many of the left turns on St. Clair because of the dangerously narrow sidewalk widths as a result.
 
lead82 said:
What they should have done is kept 4 through lanes and forced left turning cars to make 3 right turns instead, where space was tight. As it is those left lanes are short.
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And which one way northbound street do you want to have southbound traffic using it? At the same time, are you willing the be roasted over a open fire by the residents on that street??

Now, how do you do this for 18 wheelers or 5 ton van's??

Do what the Mayor of Paris did for the T3 line, no turning lanes at intersections, but you can turn there by blocking traffic behind that vehicle.
 
Jaye101 said:
The 512 carries more people on that street than the road does through the majority of the length.

"The left turn lanes are an absolute necessity." Dude, this isn't Mississauga, I don't see many people complaining about their absence elsewhere in the city. I have no clue why St. Clair would be any different. In any case, they should have had more incentive to eliminate many of the left turns on St. Clair because of the dangerously narrow sidewalk widths as a result.
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special lanes are a necessity if you are going to have advance u-turn signals...
 
I would rather they have got rid of the left turn lanes and the on-street parking so the streetcar tracks could have been straight.
 
That's what I was suggesting earlier when I said that they should not have compromised and added all those short left turn lanes. From the photos it looks like at most maybe 2-3 cars can fit in some of them.

As for 18 wheelers, and heavy vans, they shouldn't need to be turning into small streets anyway. Are 18 wheelers really that common on St. Clair? I don't see them being able to make U-turns on the current desire.

I wasn't proposing that they remove left turn lanes from major intersections, just removing them from some of the smaller streets, where the narrow ROW space required cutting sidewalks, and making the ROW all twisty.

As for being roasted by local residents. I feel that it was the residents and the SOS group that doomed the design. Instead of working with the TTC to come up with a proper design for this route, they fought back and were against it from day 1. Now they have to live with the compromise that makes no one happy.
 
lead82 said:
That's what I was suggesting earlier when I said that they should not have compromised and added all those short left turn lanes. From the photos it looks like at most maybe 2-3 cars can fit in some of them.

As for 18 wheelers, and heavy vans, they shouldn't need to be turning into small streets anyway. Are 18 wheelers really that common on St. Clair? I don't see them being able to make U-turns on the current desire.

I wasn't proposing that they remove left turn lanes from major intersections, just removing them from some of the smaller streets, where the narrow ROW space required cutting sidewalks, and making the ROW all twisty.

As for being roasted by local residents. I feel that it was the residents and the SOS group that doomed the design. Instead of working with the TTC to come up with a proper design for this route, they fought back and were against it from day 1. Now they have to live with the compromise that makes no one happy.
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+1 IMO the Roncy reconstruction is a fine example of how community involvement should be. Working towards good design with the TTC rather than rail against any and all changes.
 
kettal said:
special lanes are a necessity if you are going to have advance u-turn signals...
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I understand that... But they should only be done if there's enough space. In some places on St. Clair if a person is driving an electric wheelchair and someone is trying to pass they would have to step one foot into the street. That is completely unacceptable, there's no excuse for that. There is space for a ROW on St. Clair, just not one with centre poles and left turn lanes at every signalized intersection.
 
lead82 said:
That's what I was suggesting earlier when I said that they should not have compromised and added all those short left turn lanes. From the photos it looks like at most maybe 2-3 cars can fit in some of them.

As for 18 wheelers, and heavy vans, they shouldn't need to be turning into small streets anyway. Are 18 wheelers really that common on St. Clair? I don't see them being able to make U-turns on the current desire.

I wasn't proposing that they remove left turn lanes from major intersections, just removing them from some of the smaller streets, where the narrow ROW space required cutting sidewalks, and making the ROW all twisty.

As for being roasted by local residents. I feel that it was the residents and the SOS group that doomed the design. Instead of working with the TTC to come up with a proper design for this route, they fought back and were against it from day 1. Now they have to live with the compromise that makes no one happy.
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Often though, it is at major streets where the avenues width is narrowest. A good example of this is St. Clair at Dufferin. The way the right of way is built at Oakwood is a good example of how the rest of the line should have looked. The platforms at Oakwood are significantly wider than any other platform anywhere on the line, there is no southbound left turn lane, and there are no centre poles within 50 meters of the intersection.
 
Right but that is where the TTC messed up with the centre polls idea. Had the community gotten involved instead of railing against the project and delaying it to now end, then maybe the TTC would have been forced to use side polls which take up less space, and make it easier for emergency vehicles to use the ROW, and would have made the line less twisty than the current dumb design.

This is an example of what happens when people bitch and complain about projects but don't think about their actions or try to help the situation.

I'm hoping that the TTC's TC lines wont suffer the same fate.
 
LowerBay said:
How do you expect traffic to move with only one real traffic lane and no left turn lane? It's obvious you've never driven a car. The left turn lanes were an absolute necessity. They couldn't elminate street parking, and so there you have it. St. Clair needed to be 4 lanes in each direction pre-ROW for it to work.
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Are left turn lanes necessary downtown too? Too many compromises were made in the War on Transit and this is the result you get.
 
So, what will all the doomsday proclaimers say when the streetcars don't derail, and are able to run just fine on the drunken sailor laid tracks?
 
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