News   Jul 12, 2024
 1.3K     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 1.1K     1 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 390     0 

Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

What I find strange is that the TTC's preference for centre poles is "to reduce visual clutter from the street". See here.

I'm not sure how more poles on a street can reduce visual clutter. Centre poles are far more visually intrusive than thin wires and because these centre poles are not holding the street lighting there are actually more poles and not less. In all the pictures I can find of urban environments in Europe with LRT there does not seem to be centre poles. Where did the TTC get this idea from that they are less visually intrusive??
 
I did an undergrad project 7 years ago for Hillcrest Village BIA and as I recall, the stretch roughly between Christie and Oakwood had a very high number of failing businesses and vacant properties. Therefore, it would be nice to see this stretch become very successful!
 
The telephoto lens makes the clutter seem a lot more problematic, that's for sure.

512DufferinE200.JPG
 
If one looked at St Clair before construction even started, a fair number of business were living from day to day.

I have shot every intersection and side streets as how they were layout from Yonge St to Scarlett Rd. I even have shot what the street looked like from the middle of those intersection in both directions including the platforms.

This was done in 2005 and 2006 with about 20 shots per intersection. Even this year, I did some re-shooting of this phase as well some of the cafe's or things on the sidewalk. Therefore I have before and after shoots of the street. The only thing I regret not doing is video the street from the streetcars before they were removed.

When I built the web page for this section, I allow for 25 pages with 20 thumbnail link to the full size of the photo. That was up to 50 a few months ago and was revised to 90 6 weeks ago. I'm am currently setting at 88 and 3 weeks to go for this year. There is also links to video's up on youtube on some of the pages. A few ppl have seen these pages including TTC as I'm still making changes to the site. I am releasing it at this time as a beta and under construction as it is a huge site and not only for TTC or transit. Some items are rough drafts or layout. The site is written as strict Xhtml, CSS and for the accessibility community. I have stop writing hack code for IE as it too much problems and never use IE unless testing it since 1995. Opera will display the photo's in a lager size than rest of the browsers.

Yes some business went under from the construction, but mostly the rescission. At the same time, the culture has change over time and will continue to do so. This is where you get business relying on the cars from the 905.

Talk to some of the business as to why they are closing and you will find a fair numbers have had their lease double or triple this year to the point they did not renew their lease.

I talked to some of the BIA's and they told me about certain location why they have going out of business signs up. The landowners see a good thing or the gravy train coming where they can get a better return on their investment. Therefore, they want a better clientele than what they have now.

Fast food, bars, restaurant have the highest failure rate within 5 year after starting up. Some only last a few months. Take a look at TLS only to see this. There are a few new places that have open or will be opening shortly that are more up scale than what was there before.

The one thing that is clear these days, not every block can have retail like it was 30-50 years ago. At the same time, you need density to support those business in the first place. Also, having the right business in the right location sure helps.

I can take the heat for what been going on as I know I am right in how the ROW was built since by background is in construction and management. The photo's will say the same thing.

I will say again, TTC is on 20% at fault here. If they had any project manger doing their job right, it should only be 12% or less. All TTC did during this process was lay the rails and tracks on the concrete based pour by the contractor.

The City design the ROW, call tenders, issued contracts, provided the field supervision. Therefore, the blame falls on their shoulders. You need to add in how other utilities refused to worked together or the city not getting these guys ducks line up right from day one. Toronto Hydro was the biggest problem not only on St Clair, but Fleet St and other place that had a major impact on TTC.

I am a supporter of centre poles, but the poles were over size and space too close. Going with Pantograph, you can get larger distance between poles. Look at the distance the poles were back in 1911-20's as well the size of them from the photo that floating around and compare that to what out there now.

You got a week to go out to Westmount Ave and stand in the ROW between each track and between then looking east to see the snake. I can point to each section and tell you why there is a kink in the rail. Some is from the design, construction or how TTC lay the rails in the first place. Mostly construction and design errors.

I don't have all the answers on Transit, but if someone can show me a better way at a reasonable cost, I'm willing to change my views.

There is a reason for how I write and not the time to go into it.

In the next few days, testing of the power system is to get underway. I expect to see streetcars out testing the line late at night starting this weekend. I have no info on it.

Opening day Event is on the 19 from 11-4 and not sure when or who will be making the official announcement. Could take place at TTC meeting on the 17.

Mean while over in Phase IV, Dufferin Construction is not going to make end of December as plan from the looks of it now. After starting so slow, they went gang busting.

TTC should have that final 2 splices finish on Monday for the eastbound tracks going under the bridge with concrete been pour up to Wed. Once done, then the remaining curb lane can be rebuilt. Once everything is done, traffic will be switch to the south side next week subject to the weather.

The platforms at Keele St are pour waiting pavers and shelter. Work has started on the eastbound platform and maybe pour by now. The westbound platform is going to be verrrry naaaarow at Old Weston Rd.

All the shelters in the rest of Phase IV to the east are finish with glass in them.

Now we will have to wait until Feb to see what takes place at Gunns Rd intersection and before then as well the loop itself.
 
Last edited:
Awesome update. And a welcome voice of sanity.

Please note and recall, the TTC did not cause the majority of the massive delays on this project. There is no reason to draw any TC-related conclusions from St Claire. And also, don't blame the builders...the 'squiggly' rail was built to spec. They didn't just randomly drop segments into the concrete then bend them to get the ends lined up. The squiggles are in the design, which is full of compromises (mostly to vehicle traffic).

What's the word on signal priority on this route? I assume they've talked it up, but is it actually going to be operational?
 
How many of those vacant stores are due to the ROW construction? There's plenty of vacant stores in my area and there's no ROW being built. Its called the recession.

Along these lines, given the extreme duration of the St. Clair project, how much of the stores/restaurant turnover has absolutely anything to do with the ROW construction or with a supposed LRT-induced renaissance? The reality is that many restaurants and a large number of other businesses fail or close after 2 years, let alone after 4 or so years - which is the rough timeframe we're looking at with St. Clair. 4 years can be a near-lifetime for retail gentrification and general trendiness swings.
 
Yeah, and said kids probably also didn't understand the appeal of those old crock buildings under demolition downtown, either...

It was a different era back then and something you wouldn't understand now. We weren't nostalgic for anything in the past. It was the dawn of the space age and ultra-modern was in -- suburbanization was in. Those that lived downtown in old housing were considered poor. There were no condos. Yorkville was a run-down hippie hangout and the Annex was Hungarian.

Some of the old buildings downtown were worth saving, and the best ones (Old City Hall) did survive, but we didn't feel the streetcars had any special value. It's similar to how most people feel now about preserving the look of the BD stations. Only a minority wants them preserved, and that's how it was with the streetcars.
 
It was a different era back then and something you wouldn't understand now. We weren't nostalgic for anything in the past. It was the dawn of the space age and ultra-modern was in -- suburbanization was in. Those that lived downtown in old housing were considered poor. There were no condos. Yorkville was a run-down hippie hangout and the Annex was Hungarian.

Some of the old buildings downtown were worth saving, and the best ones (Old City Hall) did survive, but we didn't feel the streetcars had any special value. It's similar to how most people feel now about preserving the look of the BD stations. Only a minority wants them preserved, and that's how it was with the streetcars.

Somehow, it strikes me that if the "we" you're talking about was prone to blithely brushing off Yorkville as a "run-down hippie handout", well...

Look. Transcribed into the present, "your" crowd still exists. And the ones with money are tearing down anything over 50 years old in Forest Hill on behalf of McMansions. So, oh, I understand, all right, I understand...
 
Somehow, it strikes me that if the "we" you're talking about was prone to blithely brushing off Yorkville as a "run-down hippie handout", well...

Look. Transcribed into the present, "your" crowd still exists. And the ones with money are tearing down anything over 50 years old in Forest Hill on behalf of McMansions. So, oh, I understand, all right, I understand...

It's a free country, and if they want to tear down those 50 year old houses, what's it to you? In 30 years, the new generation will think you're an idiot. To each his own.
 
I guess the silver lining of the disaster on St. Clair is that the TTC may actually learn something from it. Intuitively, I'd think centre poles would reduce visual clutter as well, since you only need the one in the middle, and not two (one on each side). But it does look very cluttered. And the fact that that ROW has to handle so many curves due to left turn lanes is ridiculous. I'm a driver, yes, but I also think public transit should move fast and have priority, since cars move fast on their own and are already much faster than public transit. I firmly believe many corridors in Toronto warrant subway. But for the LRT corridors, let's do it right.
 
I guess the silver lining of the disaster on St. Clair is that the TTC may actually learn something from it. Intuitively, I'd think centre poles would reduce visual clutter as well, since you only need the one in the middle, and not two (one on each side). But it does look very cluttered. And the fact that that ROW has to handle so many curves due to left turn lanes is ridiculous. I'm a driver, yes, but I also think public transit should move fast and have priority, since cars move fast on their own and are already much faster than public transit. I firmly believe many corridors in Toronto warrant subway. But for the LRT corridors, let's do it right.

They could use Bombardier Primove technology and remove the overhead entirely ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JVtvQe30wk
 
Last edited:
It's a free country, and if they want to tear down those 50 year old houses, what's it to you? In 30 years, the new generation will think you're an idiot. To each his own.

Beyond the fact that I was broadly referring to "over 50 years old" (which could just as well be 100 years old, or certain items of greater architectural/historical distinction than others), it isn't a generational thing, it's a cultural thing.

4135899281_e9c8baa299.jpg


Like, the fine folks who produce this are by and large (with some Steve Munro-type exceptions) of a younger generation than you, and they'd think you're an idiot for condoning vulgarian teardowns in Forest Hill. And so would their "new generation" successors 30 years from now, I suppose...
 
I guess the silver lining of the disaster on St. Clair is that the TTC may actually learn something from it. Intuitively, I'd think centre poles would reduce visual clutter as well, since you only need the one in the middle, and not two (one on each side).

But they didn't put the street lights on the centre pole. Usually they attach the electrical wires on the same posts the lights are mounted on at the side of the road. They could have included lights on the middle poles and halved the number of poles on the street but instead chose to add a whole bunch of new ones keeping two on each side of the street. If centre poles reduced visual intrusion I would expect European examples of it considering they have gone to the lengths of installing the wiring into the street and I think even having battery storage to allow unpowered sections to exist.
 

Back
Top