Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
I think the folks along the south shore of Lake Simcoe in York Region aren't that interesting in paying their share of the Spadina and Yonge subway extensions.
Unless, they get the pony to get up there as well.
Unless, they get the pony to get up there as well.
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
This is factually incorrect and has been such for several years now.
Also, not really true. This is splitting hairs a bit, since Vaughan residents also pay taxes to York Region which, I daresay, most residents don't even recognize as a "senior" level of government. If you're trying to suggest that Vaughan has no skin in the game, it's a bit disingenuous. It's kind of like pretending North York residents wouldn't have paid for the extension up to Finch because Metro payed.
(For people who sincerely don't understand, the York Region mayors and a few councillors from each municipality comprise York Region council. The idea that ALL of York Region wouldn't see the benefit of an extension to Vaughan, well, it's nearly as absurd as the Prime Minister of Canada seeing no economic benefits to expanding transit in Toronto!)
Anyway, people can make all the VMC jokes they want and all the "subway to nowhere" jokes they want. First of all, it's being built. Second of all (and I feel like I say this on these boards every two weeks) this is a zero sum game. If you don't like sprawl and if you don't like all the traffic congestion swamping the city, especially in the form of drivers from the 905, you have to accept that suburbs need to be built differently.
It's really a shame that people on these boards - ie people who ostensibly have some actual interest in transit and planning - would mock the province and York Region and Vaughan for trying to STOP building the sorts of subdivisions y'all like making fun of so much. They're not going to stop that momentum in places like Vaughan without transit infrastructure. No subway=more sprawl, period. If they build the subway and VMC fails, we can have this discussion again in 25 years. In the meantime, there are already 30+-storey tower condos going up on greenfield sites and some of the biggest developers in the country are just waiting to build on the rest. Yeah, in the meantime, it's time for Toronto to overcome its own inferiority complex.
While the 416 has been playing embarrassing games with transit planning from at least the mid-1980s until, I dunno, last week, York Region drew up a plan, lobbied for the money got their subway and their BRT. Indeed, if not for York Region pushing transit-oriented development (ie the Yonge extension) while the TTC stumbled about in the dark ages, the DRL would still not be Toronto's radar. So, you're welcome. Or you can go back to Toronto's own proud transit achievements of the past few decades which are, what? Adding Downsview station, building an amputated stump of a potentially useful line and managing to announce and approve more transit plans in the past 5 years than most cities do in a century?
Oh, sure the VMC name is a bit grandiose or whatever, but again, slamming them for aspiring to be something different, sheeeee-it, maybe Toronto should give that a try? (And, no "subways, subways, subways" does not count as "aspirational.")
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nfitz
Superstar
If you want to look at it like that, Georgina residents have as much skin in the game as Vaughan residents. And Toronto residents have funded the Eglinton Crosstown, because we pay Ontario taxes ...
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
They changed it a few hundred years ago. Still, that was their slogan until very recently.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I honestly don't know what that neighbourhood was called before the mall was first built (I was only 2 and in another country in 1964)....was the mall named after the area it is in or vice versa?
Do you think (honestly) that the station needs the word "mall" for people to actually associate it with the mall? That people do not think of the ROM when they hear "Museum".
I have always liked the sort of combo way Toronto names its stops.....some are after streets/intersections and some are after landmarks near/at the station. People who ride the subway everyday as part of their commute will know where BCPV is....but ocassional users, toursits might now get a hint of something nearby and find value in the name (no matter how cumbersome it is).....calling it York U north would just make people wonder which York U station they should use. Calling it Steeles West? Perhaps but would that make people wonder where the Steeles station is or the Steeles East station? perhaps.
It is an awkwardly long name but naming it after a nearby tourist spot or landmark is not a problem for me.
those aren't even analogous.
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
As you surely know, the funding was spit between federal, provincial and municipal taxes. The latter was split between Toronto and York Region.
Georgina and Vaughan are both in the same municipality: York Region. It's a two-tier municipality, like Metro was.
Certainly the entire point of taxes is that people pay for all sorts of things they don't use but if you live in Vaughan, you are paying municipal taxes towards the subway and people you voted for (ie regional councillors and the mayor) represent you at regional council, where the decision was made. So, it's therefore splitting hairs to imply Vaughan residents aren't paying municipal taxes towards the project. The legislative structure that puts transit in the hands of the upper tier is of no relevance to residents, I think.
Obviously Georgina is paying too (and so, for that matter, are people in Gander and Nunavut) but the tax base of York Region is rather more substantial in Vaughan so I doubt Vaughan and Georgina are making equal contributions. And when they build the Yonge extension, Georgina and King City will have to help pay for that too (and, again, probably people in Gander and Nunavut). And all Ontarians (including Vaughan residents) are helping pay for the 404 extension up to Georgina. That's how these things work.
Besides, people tend to narrowly look at these projects in terms of capacity etc. They are not isolated transit lines, they are facilitators of regional planning. Ontario has a plan for the whole GTA and York Region has its own official plan that must conform to that and Vaughan has a plan that must conform to that. Implying they didn't put any political or actual capital behind that effort is rather unfair. There's plenty more to slam Vaughan for. Far be it from me to stand here and talk about how singularly awesome Vaughan is.
I'm well aware, and it's chuckle-worthy, no doubt. But the "accusation" was framed in the present tense, and therefore incorrect. Besides, it's amusing for a resident of Ontario's own "World Class City (TM)" to slam Vaughan's alleged inferiority complex. Their attempts to get a casino or a subway or whatever are no worse than Toronto's perpetual clawing at Olympics or world's fairs etc.
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Adjei
Senior Member
It's funny how Toronto residents are always complaining about this extension when the majority of the extension and stations in Toronto, what's the big deal if the line extends 2 kilometres to highway 7, after all Vaughan and York region contributed to building it and this is where Vaughan is developing their downtown. Would people have been happy if the line ended at Steeles... Instead of blaming your useless politicians for not prioritizing the DRL and instead pushing Transit city, you guys want to take your anger on Vaughan and York region. This is why transit planning in this region is so messed up, you have all these battles going all over the place so nothing gets done.
The only reason Toronto decided to push the DRL is when they realized that the extension to Richmond Hill was going to occur and then all of a sudden the DRL became the greatest transit project that needed to be built right away. The DRL wasn't even on the TTc radar and they thought of it as something for the future. Meanwhile why should anybody in Toronto be trusted with transit, they have shown they are as clueless as anybody out there. They are not afraid to cancel already signed contracts no matter the penalty in order to push $3 billion boondoggles. Toronto has nobody to blame for the transit mess they are in except for themselves.
The only reason Toronto decided to push the DRL is when they realized that the extension to Richmond Hill was going to occur and then all of a sudden the DRL became the greatest transit project that needed to be built right away. The DRL wasn't even on the TTc radar and they thought of it as something for the future. Meanwhile why should anybody in Toronto be trusted with transit, they have shown they are as clueless as anybody out there. They are not afraid to cancel already signed contracts no matter the penalty in order to push $3 billion boondoggles. Toronto has nobody to blame for the transit mess they are in except for themselves.
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RC8
Senior Member
That's not true. We can easily blame the poorly drawn municipal boundaries that allow suburban councillors to focus on pet projects while all downtown lines are at capacity and in desperate need of expansion.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The municipal boundaries are part of the problem but it's not fair to compare York Region's desire to build dense, transit-oriented nodes to the current "Boo hoo, we Scarberians need a subway because everyone else has one!" shenanigans. The only thing they have in common is someone trying to frame a REGIONAL issue as an "us vs. them" issue and I just see more of that here.
Moreover, the suburban municipalities have been leading the way in promoting these projects while TO council changes its mind 20 times and, more generally, festers when it comes to transit planning and city building.
The suburbs, by definition, are poorly connected to transit. Greater minds than I have drawn links between this and low income levels and other issues. The need for transit there is fundamental though it would be equally foolish to deny to the capacity issues in the core. But, by corollary, the suburbs shouldn't have to wait to fix their own problems because of the hole Toronto has dug itself into.
When it comes to "poorly drawn municipal boundaries" there are few government organizations in the GTA as parochial and limited in their thinking as TTC. It's the suburbs that have been bigger promoters of The Big Move and more willing to sign on to the revenue tools that Toronto's mayor literally fake-vomited at. Indeed, it's ironic that if not for those lines on the map, it would be stunningly obvious to most people that the Yonge extension (another thread, I know) should have happened years ago, as should the Spadina extension (as should Eglinton and Sheppard and probably the DRL to boot). But framing these things in terms of Scarborough vs. Downtown or 905 vs. 416 is just utterly counter-productive.
So, I sympathize with the issues in Toronto but people in Toronto need to understand that are larger regional issues that are at a critical mass and can't wait for them to get their shit together anymore.
Moreover, the suburban municipalities have been leading the way in promoting these projects while TO council changes its mind 20 times and, more generally, festers when it comes to transit planning and city building.
The suburbs, by definition, are poorly connected to transit. Greater minds than I have drawn links between this and low income levels and other issues. The need for transit there is fundamental though it would be equally foolish to deny to the capacity issues in the core. But, by corollary, the suburbs shouldn't have to wait to fix their own problems because of the hole Toronto has dug itself into.
When it comes to "poorly drawn municipal boundaries" there are few government organizations in the GTA as parochial and limited in their thinking as TTC. It's the suburbs that have been bigger promoters of The Big Move and more willing to sign on to the revenue tools that Toronto's mayor literally fake-vomited at. Indeed, it's ironic that if not for those lines on the map, it would be stunningly obvious to most people that the Yonge extension (another thread, I know) should have happened years ago, as should the Spadina extension (as should Eglinton and Sheppard and probably the DRL to boot). But framing these things in terms of Scarborough vs. Downtown or 905 vs. 416 is just utterly counter-productive.
So, I sympathize with the issues in Toronto but people in Toronto need to understand that are larger regional issues that are at a critical mass and can't wait for them to get their shit together anymore.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Because there isn't enough capacity on Yonge for the extension to go ahead (apparently). As far as I'm concerned, all subway projects across the region are a no go until the DRL is built.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
You may be right about the DRL. But Toronto council has, to be generous, dragged their feet on this. And now it's possible their actions of the past week have delayed it further. So, the question becomes, how big a hole are we going to dig for the entire region while Toronto gets its act together? On the one hand, I agree the DRL should be going in immediately. On the other hand, it could be 10-15 years away and if nothing else gets built in the GTA between now and then, well, it might be time to start shopping for a place in Calgary.
There's a lot of problems with transit in the GTA but Toronto's own inaction is certainly up there if we're doing a Top 10 list (a lack of ongoing federal support would be my #1).
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Silence&Motion
Senior Member
I never made that claim. I'm referring to the fact that the stakeholders have insisted on using the full brand for "Black Creek Pioneer Village Station" and "Vaughan Metropolitan Station", rather than more concise names like "Pioneer Station" and "Vaughan Centre Station". This would be the equivalent of insisting that "Museum Station" be called "Royal Ontario Museum Station", placing priority on promoting the ROM's brand over the desire to have a concise station name.
It's an exaggeration, but it's the same basic idea. I'm not sure that "Vaughan Metropolitan Centre" can be interpreted as anything other than an advertisement. If Vaughan is allowed to turn their station into an advertisement, why shouldn't Scarborough be able to add some kind of descriptive term to "Scarborough Centre" to make it seem important?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
TJ O'Pootertoot:
Actually both STC and VMC extensions are cut from the same cloth (i.e. if you build it they will come), with a 30 year gap in between. The more traditional line of thinking would perhaps be building lower-order modes first, and upgrade to subways as demand justifies it. There are many problems with transit in the GTA and number 1 on that list is the absolute unwillingness for n incremental approach - which when mixed with politics becomes an utterly toxic brew for determining priorities.
AoD
Actually both STC and VMC extensions are cut from the same cloth (i.e. if you build it they will come), with a 30 year gap in between. The more traditional line of thinking would perhaps be building lower-order modes first, and upgrade to subways as demand justifies it. There are many problems with transit in the GTA and number 1 on that list is the absolute unwillingness for n incremental approach - which when mixed with politics becomes an utterly toxic brew for determining priorities.
AoD