Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[Markster]

What's happening here is that drivers are simply not used to a vehicle approaching from behind on their left while they're attempting to make a left turn.
In almost all situations, this kind of running of a red light to make a left works, because you have full view of the traffic that you are turning across, namely the oncoming traffic. These people are used to running through an expired left turn, because in all cases across the city, if there were going to be an obstacle, then it would be approaching from directly in front of them.

On Queens Quay, these people are attempting a left, the light just turns red, they look across at oncoming traffic, and seeing none, think they can make it, no harm no foul... and promptly sideswipe the streetcar to their rear-left that has just coasted in to a fresh green light.

On any other street, that's not where other traffic approaches from, so their casually-learned methods for breaking the rules successfully fail.

 

[nfitz]

The 'left turn into streetcar' scenario happened a few times when the Spadina ROW was reopened and streetcar service returned to that street. It was resolved by labelling the transit signals as such. Are drivers on QQW looking at the transit signals instead?

It was also resolved by physically eliminating some of the spots the cars could cross the tracks.

And another issue here, is the green signals for streetcars to go forward, while cars have a red. The greens should be replaced by a white bar of some kind, to reduce automobile confusion.

 

[W. K. Lis]

How about a flexible stop arm at the left turn lane?

Flexible, so an illegal moving vehicle would bend the arm without breaking it, should they ignore the signal. Ditto for streetcar right-of-way, flexible for those who still ignore it. Both moves out of the way for legal vehicles using it. Emergency vehicles could still activate still.

 

[Napoleon]

The frequent lefts on red - resulting in some cases in car/streetcar collisions - are caused by drivers ignoring a) the red light, which implicitly rules out a left turn, and b) the sign beside the traffic light reading LEFT TURN SIGNAL. Are they not seeing it? Are they looking somewhere else? Or just deciding that they can make it at a given time?

I have to say, I don't think it's drivers consciously deciding to say "What the hell, I'll just turn left even if the signal is red." You rarely see drivers run red lights in Toronto except when they're trying to get through an intersection at the end of a green. So much of driving is an automatic process that there must be something that drivers are reading incorrectly as a cue to proceed through the light. Maybe it's the transit green? Maybe it's something else.

I just noticed yesterday biking through this area that Waterfront Toronto's solution to the problems seems to be to just add more signs, especially really wordy signs. I don't think that's the way to fix something that drivers are not finding intuitive.

One very obvious thing that's absolutely idiotic compared to the rest of the world is the way the left turns signals work. In most other places it's a red left arrow. The green left arrow, cycles to a yellow left arrow, which then cycles to a red left arrow. That's way, way, way more intuitive than another set of 3 circles with a "Left Turn Signal" sign next to it. Instead the left turn signal looks like the signal for going straight, which looks just like the signal for transit, which looks just like the signal for bikes. No wonder everyone is getting confused when there are so many identical signals at every intersection. Sigh.

 

[Dan416]

The transit signals should definitely be changed. That's a no-brainer.

But why don't they paint the ROW at the very least, if they're not going to give us grass?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Speaking of which, today I watched two cars turn onto the streetcar ROW on Fleet from Bathurst, which isn't anything new. People really seem to struggle with the whole ROW thing.

Because the track looks exactly the same as the rest of the track across the city that cars are supposed to drive on.

ROW

Shared roadspace. The only difference is that the above has a slight curb either side.

If enough random people are making the same mistake, you have to begin to consider that the design has at least partial blame or cause.

 

[junctionist]

It isn't hard to see how people could get confused. The waterfront draws people from around the region who might have little experience with streetcars.

 

[the lemur]

It was also resolved by physically eliminating some of the spots the cars could cross the tracks.

And another issue here, is the green signals for streetcars to go forward, while cars have a red. The greens should be replaced by a white bar of some kind, to reduce automobile confusion.

You mean the curb of the Spadina ROW was extended across some intersections?

The white bar transit signal exists at southbound Spadina to QQW.

 

[smallspy]

Hold up here....

Cars continue, almost 20 years after its opening, to get hit by streetcars when attempting illegal turns across the ROW on Spadina. Does that mean that it's design is a failure, or faulty? Or that everyone else on the roads has adjusted except for an infinitesimally small portion of the people who drive in this City every day and are incapable/oblivious to the traffic rules around it?

No doubt that there will be a spike of incidents when some sort of new and different infrastructure opens, but shouldn't we perhaps be a bit more patient? Maybe by this time next year we'll be talking about 1 or 2 incidents a month, rather than 2 or 3 incidents a week (which is already down from the 1+ incident a day we had going for the first week or two after opening).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[the lemur]

Hold up here....

Cars continue, almost 20 years after its opening, to get hit by streetcars when attempting illegal turns across the ROW on Spadina. Does that mean that it's design is a failure, or faulty? Or that everyone else on the roads has adjusted except for an infinitesimally small portion of the people who drive in this City every day and are incapable/oblivious to the traffic rules around it?

No doubt that there will be a spike of incidents when some sort of new and different infrastructure opens, but shouldn't we perhaps be a bit more patient? Maybe by this time next year we'll be talking about 1 or 2 incidents a month, rather than 2 or 3 incidents a week (which is already down from the 1+ incident a day we had going for the first week or two after opening).

This is exactly it. No matter how much thought goes into designing something, there will always be an adjustment period, especially when the configuration is entirely new to the area.

 

[Tuscani01]

I get bumped into sometimes when walking on the sidewalk, especially when people are on their phones and not paying attention.

Damn planners for designing dangerous sidewalks!!!

 

[aquateam]

Hold up here....

Cars continue, almost 20 years after its opening, to get hit by streetcars when attempting illegal turns across the ROW on Spadina. Does that mean that it's design is a failure, or faulty? Or that everyone else on the roads has adjusted except for an infinitesimally small portion of the people who drive in this City every day and are incapable/oblivious to the traffic rules around it?

No doubt that there will be a spike of incidents when some sort of new and different infrastructure opens, but shouldn't we perhaps be a bit more patient? Maybe by this time next year we'll be talking about 1 or 2 incidents a month, rather than 2 or 3 incidents a week (which is already down from the 1+ incident a day we had going for the first week or two after opening).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

At least with Spadina, it is relatively rare to see someone drive onto the ROW, unlike with Queens Quay. I think that cars illegally turning left is more due to impatient drivers taking a calculated risk/not willing to wait for the next signal/feeling entitled to turn because the forward signal is green. It's like drivers running reds or entering the intersection when it isn't clear: it's not that they don't know that it's wrong (well, some people are still confused about waiting for the intersection to be clear before entering), it's that it's inconvenient to them.

However, there will always be a non-insignificant portion drivers who are unfamiliar with Spadina/Queens Quay. Either they're from out of town, or they rarely drive downtown and haven't had any close calls with streetcars for them to lose their obliviousness to the rules. For instance, my dad often turns left on those reds because he is so used to being allowed to turn left on forward greens, and it is mildly confusing for someone who has dealt with traditional road layouts for 50+ years to see a large green light, a small red light, and a small forward green arrow. It has taken a lot of yelling to get him out of the habit. I like Napoleon's suggestion for having a red left turn arrow and a green forward arrow light, which would be much more intuitive.

Given how comically prevalent it is that drivers go on the ROW at Queens Quay, I think that additional mitigation is needed and that painting the ROW is a reasonably low-cost solution.

 

[whatever]

How hard would it be, realistically, to install retractable bollards at the entrance to the ROW? Or a railway-style swing arm?

 

[PinkLucy]

However, as I have mentioned before, cars have always driven on the ROW on QQ. I saw it regularly when living there. Is it worse now than it used to be or is it just getting more attention because the street just reopened? I would say that it is happening more on the left turn from Spadina to QQ east than it used to. So is that because people were used to having the ROW separate traffic in the past and expect it to be the same here? That would be my guess.

To me, it all seems obvious and logical, but that's likely because I followed the plans and construction and was familiar with the layout before it was open.

Will it improve with time? Hard to say. Cars drive on the Fleet St ROW daily and it has been unchanged for years. People just don't tweet about it

 

[nfitz]

You mean the curb of the Spadina ROW was extended across some intersections?

Ultimately it was. They put up temporary barriers first.

Here's a couple of reports about it. http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2001/agendas/council/cc010724/wks12rpt/cl017.pdf

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...1/June_20_2001/Other/510_Spadina_Streetca.jsp

The white bar transit signal exists at southbound Spadina to QQW.

It's used at several intersections across the city, for both buses and streetcars. I'm not sure it's ever used for anything other than left turns though. But I think that it can be used (or a similar one can be used) for going straight.