Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[ksun]

No they couldn't. You still need the DRL for east-west service through downtown. People are so fixated on the Yonge-Bloor station "relief" function of the line they tend to overlook this.

Even the Yonge extension is needed in the long term, due to all the future condo developments

yep. Toronto needs an east west rapid line to relieve/replace the 501/504. Nothing else can meet that need.
An electrified GO pass the southern edge of the city honestly doesn't go through the core. It is nothing but a suburban commute line with hardly any stops in the old city.

 

[Transportfan]

^^ Are you saying I'm full of crap? It should be obvious to anybody that a street like King could use a subway, especially with the development boom downtown.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Lakeshore route with extra stations would kind of serve King.

 

[nfitz]

I think Tory's plan is the first to go west on Eglinton to the Mississauga office areas though.

Surely his terminus is the Renforth Transitway station, the same one that was to be served by the Crosstown line that keeps going to Pearson

 

[ksun]

^^ Are you saying I'm full of crap? It should be obvious to anybody that a street like King could use a subway, especially with the development boom downtown.

I was supporting your point. When did I insinuate you are full of crap?
I don't want this smarttrack thing buit -- that will give the illusion downtown is well served and will reduce the possibility of a real DRL going through downtown core between Dundas and Front.

 

[diminutive]

Sigh... I guess you do understand.

I think we need a lot more from a mayor than a promise to stand back and watch somebody else do work. While getting out of the way is far better than what Ford did (shat on nearly everything, even stuff he should have been in favour of like the 1-stop Sheppard extension); but it is still very inadequate.

I hope Tory puts forward transportation promises which he can follow through independently from the province. The mayor can do a single medium sized project (we can raise a couple billion in revenue) or a large number of smaller projects that have a real impact.

Yea, I mean, for what it's worth I wasn't trying to endorse Tory or his platform. This proposal is one component of one plank of his platform, albeit one I like. Like you say, the City could go about some small to medium sized projects on its own. Apparently Olivia Chow's bus plan is polling well, so hopefully some candidates will come up with a resurrected TC bus plan.

I'm moving out of the City, so I haven't really bothered to figure out which candidate is best for what.

Hopefully this proposal will get discussed and then, regardless of who wins the race, it remains a priority. The concept of a surface-subway network along most or all of the GO lines in Toronto seems like it should be favoured by all candidates.

 

[JasonParis]

Let's assume for a moment that this Tory version of a DRL is what gets built and the 'real' DRL is a long ways off. Not saying I agree with that, but assuming this is the case, what can be done to make Tory's plan better?

I'd suggest the following (and no, I haven't costed any of this out):

• More stations through the core and "shoulder areas," especially in lieu of where density is going and especially since this is to be financed via TIF. Probably four extra stations between Dundas West and Main are required, three in the west and likely one around St. Lawrence.
• Potentially having the line veer off the rail corridor to operate in a tunnel through the core under Wellington (perhaps between Jarvis-area and Spadina-area). This would help to alleviate the crowding situation at Union.
• Remove all parking along the route and create a dedicated ROW for all streetcars on either the 504 King or 505 Dundas lines to somewhat replicate the path of a 'real' DRL. A larger step would be to bury this streetcar line through the core too (perhaps Parliament to Bathurst). This would somewhat relieve Yonge-Bloor Station istelf too, but there would still be issues as Don Mills / Leaside, etc. would no longer be served via DRL.
• Extend the Eglinton Crosstown instead to service the Airport Corporate Centre as it is going that way anyway. SmartTrack should remain on the rail corridor and simply terminate at YYZ (similar to the UPX, but as a local 'cheaper' service).

 

[Transportfan]

I was supporting your point. When did I insinuate you are full of crap?
I don't want this smarttrack thing buit -- that will give the illusion downtown is well served and will reduce the possibility of a real DRL going through downtown core between Dundas and Front.

Sorry. The writing style just struck me as sarcastic and snarky.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Other than the extra stops, I'm still failing to see why this proposal is such a big deal. It's basically the GO Electrification plan.

it presumably involves higher frequencies...

So does electrification. Unless the geniuses on Tory's team have somehow figured out how to run frequencies that are better than GO's 15 min or less plan.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wish I had a cost estimate to build the 10km to go from Mount Dennis to Airport Corporate Centre. Will this be underground for $3B ($300M/km). If as some say elevated transit is not popular, then how could this be elevated with elevated rail. It can't be at-grade if Tory is calling it a subway.

So it looks like the proposal is to spend $3B for this portion of the line, even though LRT would be about $1B and elevated somewhat less than $2B.
In the East, this proposal still includes the B-D subway extension to Sheppard, which is $3.5B, compared to the SRT/LRT for $2B or the SRT/LRT and elevated Eglinton for $2.5B.

When we add it all up, we are spending an extra $2B just because we are unwilling to discuss elevated transit. So by trying to save $1B with in-median LRT, we now incur an addition cost of $2B. That is the cost of not doing the right thing.

I believe it uses the Richview corridor. IIRC, Tory's website said its 100% at grade.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

With that many stops it should be part of the subway network. Elevated and buried where there's no room for at grade tracks along the corridor.

What exactly do you mean by "part of the subway network". Wouldn't this already be part of the subway network? With their increased frequencies, Tory's plan and the GO electrification plan would essentially be above ground subways. If you wanted to make them " part of the subway network" we'd just print some new maps and introduce fare integration.

The only reason I'd take them off the preexisting rail corridors would be so that we could ensure that they won't have to share the tracks with other rail. But as long as GO can maintain frequencies that are comparable to that of a subway (15 min or less), I don't think there'd be a pressing need spend billions to do this.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I like the fact that people are realizing that if a subway will take 15 years to construct & open, then we need to look at shorter term solutions.

While I support long term projects, I would like to see our transit system improve within a 5-10 year timeframe.

There are ways to immediately improve our transit system. Roll back the Stints/Ford era cut, build BRT where it makes sense, increase bus route frequencies, implement the TC Bus Plan, purchase more LFLRVs, introduce streetcar ROW on King or Queen, invest in the infrastructure needed for improved route management etc...

There are dozens of little things that the we can do to massively improve our transit system. Spending money on less than ideal infrastructure that will be used for centuries, just so we can get it a few years earlier is ridiculous. Do it right or don't do it at all.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Sigh... I guess you do understand.

I think we need a lot more from a mayor than a promise to stand back and watch somebody else do work. While getting out of the way is far better than what Ford did (shat on nearly everything, even stuff he should have been in favour of like the 1-stop Sheppard extension); but it is still very inadequate.

I hope Tory puts forward transportation promises which he can follow through independently from the province. The mayor can do a single medium sized project (we can raise a couple billion in revenue) or a large number of smaller projects that have a real impact.

See my previous post (above). If a candidate promises to do any of those, they'll have my vote. I'll easily pick a candidate with small, practical plans over one with large, impractical ones.

 

[ehlow]

There are ways to immediately improve our transit system. Roll back the Stints/Ford era cut, build BRT where it makes sense, increase bus route frequencies, implement the TC Bus Plan, purchase more LFLRVs, introduce streetcar ROW on King or Queen, invest in the infrastructure needed for improved route management etc...

Yeah... I agree. That's what I'm saying, I'm glad people are focusing on things that can be done within 5 years. Not saying we shouldn't also build 10 year projects.

There are dozens of little things that the we can do to massively improve our transit system. Spending money on less than ideal infrastructure that will be used for centuries, just so we can get it a few years earlier is ridiculous. Do it right or don't do it at all.

So the Tory "smart track" is "less than ideal"? 90% of it is the same thing as electrified GO at higher frequencies anyways. This "plan" is 90% the same as the Liberal electric GO RER plan...

I wish I could say I really cared about 200 years later. Although, talking about "centuries" seems a bit extreme to me given that our oldest subway is only 60 years old. Maybe I'm selfish but I value being able to actually use the transit within my lifetime, and it seems like the city needs a better transit system both now and in the near future, so for me 7 years or 15 years later there's a big difference. That's one of the reasons I like LRT & BRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So the Tory "smart track" is "less than ideal"? 90% of it is the same thing as electrified GO at higher frequencies anyways. This "plan" is 90% the same as the Liberal electric GO RER plan...

It's less than ideal if the Tory plan results in the cancelation of the Relief Line. GO RER + the Relief Line is clearly the better option.

I wish I could say I really cared about 200 years later. Although, talking about "centuries" seems a bit extreme to me given that our oldest subway is only 60 years old.

Yonge will still be there 200 years from now (assuming nothing horrible happens).

Maybe I'm selfish but I value being able to actually use the transit within my lifetime, and it seems like the city needs a better transit system both now and in the near future, so for me 7 years or 15 years later there's a big difference. That's one of the reasons I like LRT & BRT.

I don't know about that. All I can say is that if I had to pick between waiting 7 years for something to be built that I'd get to use within my lifetime, or waiting 15 years for something better that I'll never get to use it in my lifetime, I'd easily pick the latter. I still want this city to build things the right way even if I'll have zero use for it. It's for similar reasons why I support my taxes paying for things that I know I have no personal use for.

Maybe my perspective will change 30 years from now, when my impending mortality is more a concern.