M II A II R II K
Senior Member
With that many stops it should be part of the subway network. Elevated and buried where there's no room for at grade tracks along the corridor.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
BurlOak
Senior Member
I wish I had a cost estimate to build the 10km to go from Mount Dennis to Airport Corporate Centre. Will this be underground for $3B ($300M/km). If as some say elevated transit is not popular, then how could this be elevated with elevated rail. It can't be at-grade if Tory is calling it a subway.
So it looks like the proposal is to spend $3B for this portion of the line, even though LRT would be about $1B and elevated somewhat less than $2B.
In the East, this proposal still includes the B-D subway extension to Sheppard, which is $3.5B, compared to the SRT/LRT for $2B or the SRT/LRT and elevated Eglinton for $2.5B.
When we add it all up, we are spending an extra $2B just because we are unwilling to discuss elevated transit. So by trying to save $1B with in-median LRT, we now incur an addition cost of $2B. That is the cost of not doing the right thing.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Elevated above a rail corridor might not be so objectionable.
MisterF
Senior Member
Well, other than being pointless. The whole reason subways were invented was to put transit in areas away from rail corridors. An electrified GO network can have trains running just as frequently as a subway line.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
If they were GO exclusive then that would be okay. Not have to share those tracks to accommodate freight, and even VIA rail.
diminutive
Active Member
rbt, I'll try to respond to each of your points (though in a different order), but I still fail to see how this is such a politically contentious issue.
4.) GO hates big projects: Certainly that's been the case before, but will it always be? Metrolinx is currently in charge of the ECLRT, which is a multibillion dollar mega-project. Since the Province foots most of the bill for major projects, most future projects (such as a DRL) would almost certainly be under ML. More over, unlike lots of proposals, this type of project seems very amenable to phased and gradual introduction.
3.) I don't think the price tag is exactly random... I've speculated as to where I think that number came from. I certainly think a comparable service could be had for much cheaper, but the costs themselves could be pretty sensitive to how you may impute certain costs like electrification and signalling upgrades which would benefit the entire corridor, but would be neccessary for a surface-subway. When Karl Junkin/ Transport Action Ontario looked at doing this to the whole GO Network, he estimated capital costs of 24billion.
5.) Subsidization would be required. Yes, presumably it might. This is the sort of thing where having a proactive City would help, if Toronto was able to fund part or all of the subsidy. The financial details of how GO and TTC services are integrated will be a complicated issue regardless of this proposal. It's unfair to hold that against John Tory. At some point this issue will have to be fixed by Metrolinx and Toronto.
5b.) You're probably right we'll see a recession in the next decade or two, but this would count against any project. GO's assumptions about ridership growth are directly tied to continued growth in the FIRE sector, and any recession would hurt that. Bottom line is a recession will reduce passenger demand and, hence, undercut the viability of any and all transit projects throughout the region.
6.) The Richview land: The optics aren't exactly great, but they're not bad either. It wouldn't be Tory's fault either way. That said, details on this portion of the route are obviously the most sparse (best as I can tell, this is the only original part of the entire proposal). Who knows what's going on here...
2.) I believe Tory said 'at least' 15min service, which of course wouldn't preclude more frequent peak services. Given how vague the proposal is, it's hardly worth going so far into detail. I don't think the DRL demands you cite are anywhere near as onerous as you're suggesting. From what I remember, the Lakeshore RT (and the DRL, for that matter) was projected to attract ~13k riders in peak hour. Assuming an even 15k, that could be pretty easily served without moving into crazy frequencies. Even more so if you allow for longer trains, which should be relatively low cost if the stations are all above ground.
1.) Corridor capacity is obviously the most substantial issue, but one which shouldn't be insurmountable. With 6 tracks, it seems like there's enough capacity if some services are collapsed. Based on the info surrounding the London HSR (which is similarly vague at this point), it seems like UPX could easily be collapsed into another intercity service. If you dedicate two tracks to the RER line, that would leave 4 tracks for intercity and commuter rail, which is totally sufficient. It's hard to be more specific since we've got no clue what future GO, Via, UPX and HSR services will look like.
4.) GO hates big projects: Certainly that's been the case before, but will it always be? Metrolinx is currently in charge of the ECLRT, which is a multibillion dollar mega-project. Since the Province foots most of the bill for major projects, most future projects (such as a DRL) would almost certainly be under ML. More over, unlike lots of proposals, this type of project seems very amenable to phased and gradual introduction.
3.) I don't think the price tag is exactly random... I've speculated as to where I think that number came from. I certainly think a comparable service could be had for much cheaper, but the costs themselves could be pretty sensitive to how you may impute certain costs like electrification and signalling upgrades which would benefit the entire corridor, but would be neccessary for a surface-subway. When Karl Junkin/ Transport Action Ontario looked at doing this to the whole GO Network, he estimated capital costs of 24billion.
5.) Subsidization would be required. Yes, presumably it might. This is the sort of thing where having a proactive City would help, if Toronto was able to fund part or all of the subsidy. The financial details of how GO and TTC services are integrated will be a complicated issue regardless of this proposal. It's unfair to hold that against John Tory. At some point this issue will have to be fixed by Metrolinx and Toronto.
5b.) You're probably right we'll see a recession in the next decade or two, but this would count against any project. GO's assumptions about ridership growth are directly tied to continued growth in the FIRE sector, and any recession would hurt that. Bottom line is a recession will reduce passenger demand and, hence, undercut the viability of any and all transit projects throughout the region.
6.) The Richview land: The optics aren't exactly great, but they're not bad either. It wouldn't be Tory's fault either way. That said, details on this portion of the route are obviously the most sparse (best as I can tell, this is the only original part of the entire proposal). Who knows what's going on here...
2.) I believe Tory said 'at least' 15min service, which of course wouldn't preclude more frequent peak services. Given how vague the proposal is, it's hardly worth going so far into detail. I don't think the DRL demands you cite are anywhere near as onerous as you're suggesting. From what I remember, the Lakeshore RT (and the DRL, for that matter) was projected to attract ~13k riders in peak hour. Assuming an even 15k, that could be pretty easily served without moving into crazy frequencies. Even more so if you allow for longer trains, which should be relatively low cost if the stations are all above ground.
1.) Corridor capacity is obviously the most substantial issue, but one which shouldn't be insurmountable. With 6 tracks, it seems like there's enough capacity if some services are collapsed. Based on the info surrounding the London HSR (which is similarly vague at this point), it seems like UPX could easily be collapsed into another intercity service. If you dedicate two tracks to the RER line, that would leave 4 tracks for intercity and commuter rail, which is totally sufficient. It's hard to be more specific since we've got no clue what future GO, Via, UPX and HSR services will look like.
drum118
Superstar
There a thing call capacity and since this is in GO Corridors, where do you expect to put GO capacity if it is remove for this plan down the road??
Stopping at Eglinton doesn't help the Yonge Line at all.
Can't build an elevated line as there too much in the way as well the people will bitch about being high in the air as well falling into their house.
This is a very dumb idea one way, but a good idea another.
I have being calling for a REX line where most of the eastern section is underground up to Steeles and would interline with the RH line. This plan does allow the the other option I have call for by interlining with all the west corridors and run different type of service as well trains. Still DD trains up to 10 cars long as EMU's
rbt
Senior Member
You believe direction from the Mayors office can solve these issues within a year so an EA is complete and construction well under way by the end of Tory's 1st term (2018)? He attached a 7 year timeline to it as one of the reasons it's better than the subway based DRL (faster to build).
If this was a promise coming from Olivia Chow and Tim Hudak was expected to have a strong majority government, do you believe it would be possible for the Mayor to achieve this in that timeframe?
Its not a promise that a mayoral candidate can actually keep. A mayor has near zero authority over it. The Mayor of Toronto couldn't even fund and start an EA on the project because taking measurements would be trespassing.
At very least he should have waited until the end of June to see who he was going to be asking to implement it for him.
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...eath_for_that_downtown_relief_line_james.html
If you’re the proud parent of a newborn this year, imagine this:
Transit planners had better hurry, really hurry, or the downtown relief line will not be ready in time to get your offspring to a downtown campus for university education.
These projects take forever.
That’s why mayoral candidate John Tory’s alternative SmartTrack proposal is so exciting, even minus details, irrefutable funding, and a reality check.
Tory would use existing rail corridors and tracks to take passengers 53 kilometres, over 22 stations. Cost is $8 billion.
Tory says it can be done in seven years, using GO transit lines instead of new tunnels. But even if delivery takes twice as long, we may be a decade ahead of the subway alternative.
You may think I exaggerate, but consider my experience.
In some of the early stories I wrote as a cub reporter with this newspaper in the mid-1980s, transportation planners salivated about the idea of linking the downtown university campuses to suburban York University at Jane and Steeles.
The TTC unveiled “Network 2011” and David Peterson’s Liberals gave us “Let’s Move.” The Bob Rae New Democrats succeeded Peterson, renamed the plan, and trumpeted it, and prodded the Metro Toronto government to embrace it, along with proposed subways along Eglinton and Sheppard East.
Conservative Premier Mike Harris filled in the hole that marked the start of the Eglinton Subway, grudgingly funded a stub of Sheppard subway and ignored the extension to York University.
Only upon the second coming of the Liberals, this time with deputy premier Greg Sorbara pushing the project that was in his riding, did the extension to York University find approval and funding.
And that very line won’t open until 2016, people.
Thirty years later.
Think about that when you hear talk of the nascent Downtown Relief Line — reborn after being buried on primordial transit plans from another era. It’s on Metrolinx’s list of next-wave projects, but it is far from ready for prime time.
Still to come are cost-benefit analysis on the line. Environmental Assessment. Route selection from among the many ideas. And a mountain of studies and consultations and hand-wringing and funding battles and . . .
There are good reasons why current expectation calls for 2031 completion. Add 50 per cent more to that construction time frame and we are into the 2040s.
So, if we really want to address congestion any time soon we should hope and pray Tory is right about using existing GO Transit tracks and corridors to deliver transit solutions sooner.
Of course, there is the tiny problem of this proposal coming in the midst of an election campaign where it is sure to be slammed by mayoral candidates. And, being a political document, the SmartTrack plan has obvious head-scratchers.
One is, why would you need the Scarborough subway up McCowan Rd. to the town centre, if you’re building a new express line nearby? Is Scarborough so rich a voting block that it needs two rapid transit corridors close by, while other areas languish?
The answer, of course, is in the politics of the Scarborough subway issue. It’s poisonous to kill a project approved after so much wrangling and political manoeuvring in the first place. Better to let it be and revisit it later.
In all the email responses to news reports of Tory’s transit plan, one stands out: “Great idea. Unfortunately you can’t pick where or from whom ideas come. Let’s hope the others can see this plan as an opportunity to rethink current infrastructure ideals.”
Yes, let’s hope.
Last December The Star ran a report from a transit expert writing for the Neptis Foundation. Michael Schabas said the DRL would be a colossal waste of money. For $100 million, Metrolinx could use the Stouffville corridor and run a shuttle from Union Station to Main subway station and deliver the needed relief of passengers off the Yonge St. subway.
Service could be ready in just two to three years. The trip would take 10 minutes and attract many passengers heading downtown, avoiding the many stops along the Danforth line and the transfer at Yonge, Schabas said.
DRL fans were furious.
Now, Tory has picked up the idea, expanding it east and west.
Schabas also wrote:
“The entire GO system can be upgraded to a 15-minute all-day two-way service with 25 per cent faster journey times for less money than the cost of the Phase 1 of the Downtown Relief Line.”
For example, Express GO rail relief service, with interchanges at Kennedy, Main, Dundas West and Kipling subway stations, “can provide similar relief to the subway at a fraction of the cost.”
It’s no coincidence the provincial Liberals are seriously looking at this idea and adopted it as policy direction going forward.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...transit-future-ttc-head-says/article18903410/
Downtown relief line still key to Toronto's transit future, TTC head says
By OLIVER MOORE
Warning comes one day after mayoral hopeful John Tory threw backing behind provincial proposal for upgraded service on GO tracks
A new underground transit line into downtown Toronto will "absolutely" still be necessary regardless of what is done to increase use of the GO corridors, TTC head Andy Byford said Wednesday.
The warning came a day after mayoral candidate John Tory threw his backing behind a provincial proposal for upgraded service on GO tracks, saying it was his version of a downtown relief line. Although he did not explicitly rule out a tunnelled DRL, as traditionally envisioned, he called it "the wrong line" and suggested his plan for surface transit would push that project to an indefinite future.
But it may not be that easy. Although he was careful not to comment directly on Mr. Tory's plan, Mr. Byford made clear that the long-planned underground DRL is key to the city's transit future.
"We at the TTC have always advocated better use of the GO lines, they're a very useful resource," he said after the monthly TTC commission meeting.
"Ultimately, any additional capacity is welcomed in the city. We all know that the TTC is carrying greater rider numbers than ever. That number is predicted to rise up to a point in 2031 where the southbound Yonge line will be completely overwhelmed. So for that reason, we say that... a relief line is necessary. If, in the interim, other measures can be undertaken to address congestion ... then we fully support that."
A roughly U-shaped downtown relief line, connecting the core with the Bloor-Danforth line, has been mooted for decades. Without this additional capacity, the Yonge subway and its interchange station at Bloor Street are projected to face crisis levels of crowding in less than two decades.
The eastern portion of the DRL is more urgently needed and the city's planning and growth management committee will vote Thursday on an accelerated environmental assessment. This would go to full council for approval next month but, if either vote fails, the project will not be revisited until next year.
A tunnelled DRL will invariably take at least 15 years. In backing electrified, high-frequency service on GO corridors, Mr. Tory sought to accelerate the timeline dramatically, promising completion within seven years. But Mr. Byford made clear that one line does not remove the need for the other.
"Ultimately we still believe – all the figures show and all of our studies show and the downtown relief study that we did some time ago still shows – that whatever you do, there's still a need to add capacity in that critical corridor to relieve Yonge and Bloor station and to relieve pressure on the Yonge line," he said. "That hasn't gone away, that remains our number-one priority."
Real annoying that GenerationW is staring to be right
If you’re the proud parent of a newborn this year, imagine this:
Transit planners had better hurry, really hurry, or the downtown relief line will not be ready in time to get your offspring to a downtown campus for university education.
These projects take forever.
That’s why mayoral candidate John Tory’s alternative SmartTrack proposal is so exciting, even minus details, irrefutable funding, and a reality check.
Tory would use existing rail corridors and tracks to take passengers 53 kilometres, over 22 stations. Cost is $8 billion.
Tory says it can be done in seven years, using GO transit lines instead of new tunnels. But even if delivery takes twice as long, we may be a decade ahead of the subway alternative.
You may think I exaggerate, but consider my experience.
In some of the early stories I wrote as a cub reporter with this newspaper in the mid-1980s, transportation planners salivated about the idea of linking the downtown university campuses to suburban York University at Jane and Steeles.
The TTC unveiled “Network 2011” and David Peterson’s Liberals gave us “Let’s Move.” The Bob Rae New Democrats succeeded Peterson, renamed the plan, and trumpeted it, and prodded the Metro Toronto government to embrace it, along with proposed subways along Eglinton and Sheppard East.
Conservative Premier Mike Harris filled in the hole that marked the start of the Eglinton Subway, grudgingly funded a stub of Sheppard subway and ignored the extension to York University.
Only upon the second coming of the Liberals, this time with deputy premier Greg Sorbara pushing the project that was in his riding, did the extension to York University find approval and funding.
And that very line won’t open until 2016, people.
Thirty years later.
Think about that when you hear talk of the nascent Downtown Relief Line — reborn after being buried on primordial transit plans from another era. It’s on Metrolinx’s list of next-wave projects, but it is far from ready for prime time.
Still to come are cost-benefit analysis on the line. Environmental Assessment. Route selection from among the many ideas. And a mountain of studies and consultations and hand-wringing and funding battles and . . .
There are good reasons why current expectation calls for 2031 completion. Add 50 per cent more to that construction time frame and we are into the 2040s.
So, if we really want to address congestion any time soon we should hope and pray Tory is right about using existing GO Transit tracks and corridors to deliver transit solutions sooner.
Of course, there is the tiny problem of this proposal coming in the midst of an election campaign where it is sure to be slammed by mayoral candidates. And, being a political document, the SmartTrack plan has obvious head-scratchers.
One is, why would you need the Scarborough subway up McCowan Rd. to the town centre, if you’re building a new express line nearby? Is Scarborough so rich a voting block that it needs two rapid transit corridors close by, while other areas languish?
The answer, of course, is in the politics of the Scarborough subway issue. It’s poisonous to kill a project approved after so much wrangling and political manoeuvring in the first place. Better to let it be and revisit it later.
In all the email responses to news reports of Tory’s transit plan, one stands out: “Great idea. Unfortunately you can’t pick where or from whom ideas come. Let’s hope the others can see this plan as an opportunity to rethink current infrastructure ideals.”
Yes, let’s hope.
Last December The Star ran a report from a transit expert writing for the Neptis Foundation. Michael Schabas said the DRL would be a colossal waste of money. For $100 million, Metrolinx could use the Stouffville corridor and run a shuttle from Union Station to Main subway station and deliver the needed relief of passengers off the Yonge St. subway.
Service could be ready in just two to three years. The trip would take 10 minutes and attract many passengers heading downtown, avoiding the many stops along the Danforth line and the transfer at Yonge, Schabas said.
DRL fans were furious.
Now, Tory has picked up the idea, expanding it east and west.
Schabas also wrote:
“The entire GO system can be upgraded to a 15-minute all-day two-way service with 25 per cent faster journey times for less money than the cost of the Phase 1 of the Downtown Relief Line.”
For example, Express GO rail relief service, with interchanges at Kennedy, Main, Dundas West and Kipling subway stations, “can provide similar relief to the subway at a fraction of the cost.”
It’s no coincidence the provincial Liberals are seriously looking at this idea and adopted it as policy direction going forward.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...transit-future-ttc-head-says/article18903410/
Downtown relief line still key to Toronto's transit future, TTC head says
By OLIVER MOORE
Warning comes one day after mayoral hopeful John Tory threw backing behind provincial proposal for upgraded service on GO tracks
A new underground transit line into downtown Toronto will "absolutely" still be necessary regardless of what is done to increase use of the GO corridors, TTC head Andy Byford said Wednesday.
The warning came a day after mayoral candidate John Tory threw his backing behind a provincial proposal for upgraded service on GO tracks, saying it was his version of a downtown relief line. Although he did not explicitly rule out a tunnelled DRL, as traditionally envisioned, he called it "the wrong line" and suggested his plan for surface transit would push that project to an indefinite future.
But it may not be that easy. Although he was careful not to comment directly on Mr. Tory's plan, Mr. Byford made clear that the long-planned underground DRL is key to the city's transit future.
"We at the TTC have always advocated better use of the GO lines, they're a very useful resource," he said after the monthly TTC commission meeting.
"Ultimately, any additional capacity is welcomed in the city. We all know that the TTC is carrying greater rider numbers than ever. That number is predicted to rise up to a point in 2031 where the southbound Yonge line will be completely overwhelmed. So for that reason, we say that... a relief line is necessary. If, in the interim, other measures can be undertaken to address congestion ... then we fully support that."
A roughly U-shaped downtown relief line, connecting the core with the Bloor-Danforth line, has been mooted for decades. Without this additional capacity, the Yonge subway and its interchange station at Bloor Street are projected to face crisis levels of crowding in less than two decades.
The eastern portion of the DRL is more urgently needed and the city's planning and growth management committee will vote Thursday on an accelerated environmental assessment. This would go to full council for approval next month but, if either vote fails, the project will not be revisited until next year.
A tunnelled DRL will invariably take at least 15 years. In backing electrified, high-frequency service on GO corridors, Mr. Tory sought to accelerate the timeline dramatically, promising completion within seven years. But Mr. Byford made clear that one line does not remove the need for the other.
"Ultimately we still believe – all the figures show and all of our studies show and the downtown relief study that we did some time ago still shows – that whatever you do, there's still a need to add capacity in that critical corridor to relieve Yonge and Bloor station and to relieve pressure on the Yonge line," he said. "That hasn't gone away, that remains our number-one priority."
Real annoying that GenerationW is staring to be right
diminutive
Active Member
No, I think everyone has been very clear from the get-go that, if something like this ever happened, it would be QP driving. Even Tory is framing it as a Provincial project. Ideally all decisions would take place at one level of government, but that's just not where Toronto is at this point in time. Any major transit project in Ontario exists only by the grace of the Province.
I'd say that's specifically why Tory has tried to frame this project as a complement to the supposed Provincial frequent GO network.
There are also major components of this project which would require City Hall's active cooperation (mainly fare integration and service integration) as well.
And, look, one of Chow's (and literally every other candidate for Mayor, ever) major platforms is hitting up the Province and Feds for more operational funding. Cynically, it's easy to say both will just tell her to get lost (like Miller's 1c campaign...). But, hey, that's what's she's promising to do, and voters have at least decent reason to suspect she will do that.
Bottom line, any proposal, from any candidate, will need to somehow convince QP and Ottawa it's a good idea for it to have any future. I'm not sure what would be gained from the Mayor taking a stoic attitude and saying 'it's not within my direct legal powers to do anything, so i won't do anything." Mayors can have strong advocative roles.
And waste valuable campaign time? More importantly, waste time for Provincial leaders to be be asked if they agree with Tory's vision, and to allow voters to think about their responses?
That's just politically backwards. Tory is saying what his priority would be if he was Mayor. Of course that's contingent on literally dozens of other factors beyond his legal control. That's just how things work, and why campaign promises so rarely translate into reality.
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sixrings
Senior Member
Torys plan would benefit the most from having LRT because there wont be much density around the stations and most people will be taking transit there or begging their friends for a ride. I would be in support of it if I knew Union could handle the load, the west had more stops, the west didn't use Eglinton but instead the UPX line and there was continued advocacy for LRT lines.
ehlow
Senior Member
I like the fact that people are realizing that if a subway will take 15 years to construct & open, then we need to look at shorter term solutions.
While I support long term projects, I would like to see our transit system improve within a 5-10 year timeframe.
While I support long term projects, I would like to see our transit system improve within a 5-10 year timeframe.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
It's possible to eliminate the DRL if you had an integrated, connected, frequent, electrified GO service, but it would also require a straighter RH route with the same kind of service to go with it, to serve the Don corridor, and relieve the Yonge Line from York region commuters.
rbt
Senior Member
Sigh... I guess you do understand.
I think we need a lot more from a mayor than a promise to stand back and watch somebody else do work. While getting out of the way is far better than what Ford did (shat on nearly everything, even stuff he should have been in favour of like the 1-stop Sheppard extension); but it is still very inadequate.
I hope Tory puts forward transportation promises which he can follow through independently from the province. The mayor can do a single medium sized project (we can raise a couple billion in revenue) or a large number of smaller projects that have a real impact.
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Transportfan
Senior Member
No they couldn't. You still need the DRL for east-west service through downtown. People are so fixated on the Yonge-Bloor station "relief" function of the line they tend to overlook this.
Even the Yonge extension is needed in the long term, due to all the future condo developments