afransen
Senior Member
What modeling has been done for OL North?
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
TossYourJacket
Senior Member
I think they're referring to the RL North studies. Which did include both Don Mills and Vic Park alignments north of Science Centre station as options.
I think the general conclusion from what little we know (since you know, it's MX and they hate making things public) was that a Don Mills alignment provided more relief to Line 1, but a Vic Park alignment would have more riders. Which makes sense since the Vic Park alignment goes directly to the Consumers Road business park, which is one of the largest employment centres in Toronto, so you'd have people going north as well as south. Without a Sheppard extension, getting from Don Mills station to the Consumers Rd business park can be annoying as you have to wait for a bus transfer (source: did this for 2 years for a job, it would take me 35-40 minutes to get from downtown to Don Mills, and then sometimes as much as 20 minutes more to get from Don Mills to Vic Park and Sheppard). So maybe if they extend the Sheppard line, transferring at Don Mills won't be so bad?
Also, those studies were before the explosion in WFH, so I'm sure they'd need to be reevaluated to some degree.
NoahB
Active Member
For reference here is the routes that were studied for the Relief Line North.
Urban Toronto had an article about it.
You can see that there were multiple options including what seems to be using the line to close Line 4's gap to Victoria Park. (but this was when both lines used the same tech)
The studied routing north to Don Mills (option 4) or Leslie (option 3), and also veering east to Victoria Park-Lawrence and then north on Victoria Park. (option 5)
Note that the Study Area went all the way to Steeles.
Urban Toronto had an article about it.
You can see that there were multiple options including what seems to be using the line to close Line 4's gap to Victoria Park. (but this was when both lines used the same tech)
The studied routing north to Don Mills (option 4) or Leslie (option 3), and also veering east to Victoria Park-Lawrence and then north on Victoria Park. (option 5)
Note that the Study Area went all the way to Steeles.
Sunnyside
Active Member
I think this is a fair point from a user perspective, but from a planning POV going underground with the OL again adds costs/complexity that defeats the benefits of its elevation. Some alternatives:
A) keep things as simple as possible with an (ironically) complex interchange with higher-speed elevators ala Spanish stations.
B) If Line 4 is so deep that (A) is impractical, then there must be room for a short cut and cover tunnel above Don Mills’ Station box. The tail tracks still ought to emerge elevated again north of Sheppard.
C) (B) or any other underground configuration is best if it interfaces with Line 4 directly; that is, converting it to standard gauge/OL “light” automated metro with interlining being entertained.
The point is, under no circumstances can we compromise the ease of extensions baked into the OL at a Sheppard interchange or elsewhere. To do so is to to not learn from Toronto’s mistakes and misses the forest for this one tree.
JSF-1
Active Member
Sure but at the same time we shouldn't just ignore the user experience or else it just convinces people to not use if its to inconvenient. We should learn from the past and that includes not building another Spadina style interchange. We are already kinda doing this with the interchange at Osgoode Station, and sure the line is pretty deep underground there but as has been discussed in this very thread the interchange could be even better.
Sunnyside
Active Member
Of course. I think the point here is that the chosen design is going to be a balancing act between accessibility, further extensions, and if/how Line 4 affects things.
Reecemartin
Active Member
I always find it funny that extensions are planned to end at L4 instead of going just a little further and connecting to the huge Seneca campus, if only our costs were lower . . .
nfitz
Superstar
JordanHo2782
New Member
I am not even sure whether there is enough clerance for extension north of Science Center station, or how could the track change from elevated to underground.
nfitz
Superstar
It's always been planned for an extension. I'm not sure the design though - I wouldn't think it would be heading underground again for quite sometime. Perhaps not even until Pearson Airport.
JordanHo2782
New Member
I am not sure the western segment beyond Exhibition Station. For the eastern segment, let say if it stay elevated, then how could it interface with Don Mill Station, how could it have alignment in Don Valley Village, and how could it route to Richmond Hill center. It does not have to be all underground, but I see at some point it needs to go underground to solve those issues.
Sunnyside
Active Member
Follow Don Mills until the 407, where it goes to RHC? To and from there It doesn’t need to go underground at all, not even to Pearson or Kipling. Now, for going west of Exhibition, it may be a different story, but if the goal is to simply get to Kipling and nothing between, it’s doable. If the OL took the LSW corridor and was elevated over the industrious Queensway or Kipling to Kipling Station, then all it takes is the 427 to keep going to Pearson from there.
In any case, the north extension has no need to go underground anywhere, it would only be to make a Sheppard/Don Mills transfer smoother. High speed elevators are an option however. Beyond that minor challenge, the rest of the OL falls into place quite seamlessly along the 407/427.
nfitz
Superstar
I've not seen any alignment for the west extension. Only the "east" extension to Kipling via 407 and Pearson.
The Ontario Line platforms for Science Centre station are elevated, while the Eglinton Line ones are underground; nothing precluded the same being done at Sheppard.
I don't see that there's a particular need to bury it anywhere along Don Mills, even at Lawrence and Don Mills Village. Though it's certainly possible. I don't see that elevation change to underground would be an issue though.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
At Don Mills and Eglinton, the connection is a little easier because the elevated Ontario Line is offset from the road and directly above the Eglinton line. At Don Mills on Sheppard, the existing station is north of Sheppard and east of Don Mills. I can't see any way of building a vertical connection that doesn't have at least two sets of elevators and a horizontal path. That's why I think moving the connection point to Victoria Park and new purpose-built transfer station is a better option.
smallspy
Senior Member
The Crosstown platforms are located directly underneath Eglinton, and offset to the east of Don Mills. The Ontario Line platforms will be located in the north-east corner of the intersection - totally north of Eglinton, and to the east of Don Mills. The assumption is that the transfer between the two will occur at the south end of the Ontario Line platforms down to the existing passageway between the mezzanine and the bus terminal.
The platforms for Don Mills Station are located directly under Sheppard Ave, with their western end right under Don Mills. An Ontario Line station would therefore have to be located with at least its southern end right above Sheppard in order to minimize the amount of walking necessary to connect the two.
Dan