Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

If we take as a given that, for at least the next few decades, ridership considerations dictate that:
  • from Port Credit north to point x the corridor will use LRT; and
  • from Mayfield south to point x the corridor will be either the current flavour of BRT-light Zum, or maybe be bumped up a notch to full BRT
...then really the debate comes down to where's the most logical place for x.

Everyone hates same-direction linear transfers (see: Sheppard subway/LRT debate, Scarborough RT/subway debate etc. etc.), but they're an inevitability in a world where the Yonge subway can't run to Lake Simcoe. Assuming you're not just choosing the spot based on where you run out of money for the more expensive mode, ideally you'd want somewhere where there will naturally be a fair number of trips beginning, ending, or turning direction to minimize the number of "straight-through" riders who are needlessly inconvenienced.

For that reason I think downtown Brampton is the best potential spot on the corridor to be point x . Because it's theoretically a destination unto itself now (and ideally should grow into more of one in the future) then a significant amount of travellers will be making radial trips between it and the Brampton periphery while a reduced proportion will be travelling straight through (at least compared with other point x options along the corridor like at Hurontario & 401, Steeles, Sandalwood etc.). It's also an important "bend" point from a regional perspective: someone going between a house in Georgetown and a job at Square One can take the GO train across and then the LRT down; someone going from South Brampton to Vaughan can take the LRT up and then Queen across, someone going from North Brampton to Union can take Zum south and then the GO Train to Union and so on, and those riders avoid an extra transfer inserted somewhere into the N-S part of their journey.
 
Platform 27 said:
If we take as a given that, for at least the next few decades, ridership considerations dictate that:
  • from Port Credit north to point x the corridor will use LRT; and
  • from Mayfield south to point x the corridor will be either the current flavour of BRT-light Zum, or maybe be bumped up a notch to full BRT
...then really the debate comes down to where's the most logical place for x.

Everyone hates same-direction linear transfers (see: Sheppard subway/LRT debate, Scarborough RT/subway debate etc. etc.), but they're an inevitability in a world where the Yonge subway can't run to Lake Simcoe. Assuming you're not just choosing the spot based on where you run out of money for the more expensive mode, ideally you'd want somewhere where there will naturally be a fair number of trips beginning, ending, or turning direction to minimize the number of "straight-through" riders who are needlessly inconvenienced.

For that reason I think downtown Brampton is the best potential spot on the corridor to be point x . Because it's theoretically a destination unto itself now (and ideally should grow into more of one in the future) then a significant amount of travellers will be making radial trips between it and the Brampton periphery while a reduced proportion will be travelling straight through (at least compared with other point x options along the corridor like at Hurontario & 401, Steeles, Sandalwood etc.). It's also an important "bend" point from a regional perspective: someone going between a house in Georgetown and a job at Square One can take the GO train across and then the LRT down; someone going from South Brampton to Vaughan can take the LRT up and then Queen across, someone going from North Brampton to Union can take Zum south and then the GO Train to Union and so on, and those riders avoid an extra transfer inserted somewhere into the N-S part of their journey.
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I agree with you. The Brampton GO Station seems like the most logical place to 'split' that corridor. It minimizes the number of people forced to make a linear transfer, and it helps maximize the 'hub' effect of that station. From Brampton GO, you could get relatively close to almost anywhere in the GTA. GO takes you to Union or to Kitchener. LRT takes you to Shoppers World or Sq 1. Züm takes you into York Region. And a plethora of local routes can take you most places in Brampton.

The only people who would be inconvenienced by the linear transfer are those who are beyond reasonable walking distance south of the GO station along Main, and thus would need to wait for the LRT, then transfer, then continue north. If you're anywhere in downtown Brampton, theoretically it would be faster to just walk to the GO station, and then catch the bus heading northbound (unless you happen to time it perfectly and catch the LRT just as you're stepping out).

I realize that this is a very GO-centric model, but if you bring express regional, express local, and local transit to the same hub, you can serve so many different types of trip and transfer patterns from a single location. You'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else in Brampton with that kind of triple-layered potential.
 
gweed123 said:
I agree with you. The Brampton GO Station seems like the most logical place to 'split' that corridor. It minimizes the number of people forced to make a linear transfer, and it helps maximize the 'hub' effect of that station. From Brampton GO, you could get relatively close to almost anywhere in the GTA. GO takes you to Union or to Kitchener. LRT takes you to Shoppers World or Sq 1. Züm takes you into York Region. And a plethora of local routes can take you most places in Brampton.

The only people who would be inconvenienced by the linear transfer are those who are beyond reasonable walking distance south of the GO station along Main, and thus would need to wait for the LRT, then transfer, then continue north. If you're anywhere in downtown Brampton, theoretically it would be faster to just walk to the GO station, and then catch the bus heading northbound (unless you happen to time it perfectly and catch the LRT just as you're stepping out).

I realize that this is a very GO-centric model, but if you bring express regional, express local, and local transit to the same hub, you can serve so many different types of trip and transfer patterns from a single location. You'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else in Brampton with that kind of triple-layered potential.
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All very good points......but I guess what I was saying is that how you get the LRT to the GO Station/Hub seems to be causing difficulty....if that difficulty translates to higher cost...then at some point you have to consider options/value/return......and the goal of getting that LRT to the Brampton GO station should not (IMO) be an "at any cost" type of situation.
 
TOareaFan said:
All very good points......but I guess what I was saying is that how you get the LRT to the GO Station/Hub seems to be causing difficulty....if that difficulty translates to higher cost...then at some point you have to consider options/value/return......and the goal of getting that LRT to the Brampton GO station should not (IMO) be an "at any cost" type of situation.
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Certainly not. If the only option is tunnelling then yeah, stop it at a point south of the station. But if there are some decent surface configurations available, even if they mess up vehicular traffic flow a little bit, it's worth it. If it means Main St is reduced to 1 lane in each direction for cars, go for it.
 
Mark May 14 for Mississauga and May 15 for Brampton on your calendar for the last Hurontario LRT open house.

All platforms are design to handle 3 30m cars sets, but only built for a single car at this time. Nothing is stopping from order 42m or 45m cars for day one unless being force to buy 30m cars from Thunder Bay. Ottawa has order 42m cars.

Brampton Downtown is still being looked at, as there is 3 different option including the one I fail to post still under review. The fail post would see a single track for the 3 downtown blocks to allow for traffic single lane traffic and an ROW.

The Brampton plan calls for the line to go north of the bridge as I recommended and then turn into the GO/VIA parking lot. Since headway will be about every 10 minutes, this single track will have no operation issues unless there is a delay at the station.

Mississauga core is still up in the air with the following routes being looked at.
1) as per the plan to run west on Burnhamthorp to LAC, then north to Rathburn and east to the terminal. Another issue how to get to Hurontario has risen and being look at.

2) as #1 except by Duke of York.

3) as #1, but will use Sq One Dr and will deal with the issue how to connect to Hurontario.

4) as #2 using, but using Sq One Dr.

Taking the line along Sq One Dr will have a major impact on traffic and will have Sq One bitching.

Still a wrong decision for this loop.

The Hurontario Line was to go up the new extension for Absolute Dr that would connect to City Centre Dr and then go over the 403. That alinement is dead due to traffic issues. The line will go north to Sq One Dr and then shift to the west side of both bridges. This has to do with the loading docks at Robert Speck Dr for Walmart and Sq One.

Since there is major waterline and Trunk work taking place on Burnhamthorpe and at Eglinton in 2015, a new timetable is being look at so it will not effect the start of the building of the line in the fall of 2015 as a P3 project. I don't think construction will start in 2015, but later with 2017-20 being the earliest dates. I hope I am wrong.

The EA for this project has to be completed by Dec so funding can be put in for the line in Metrolinx 2014 budget.
 
Considering 10/11 towers being built at Parkside Village, Pinnacle's two towers at Grand Park, the future development of the Rogers land, the 4/5 towers likely to be built by Daniels (three south of Limelight and more at the land where they have the sales offices now), it would make sense to have the loop go west on Burnhamthorpe then north on Confederation then east on Rathburn to the Transit terminal.
 
Was at Council update hearing today and disappointed on the presentation as I was expecting more.

Open houses next week as my past posting.

Metrolinx will have their mockup car there starting Friday and open for viewing on Sat 10-4, Sunday 12-4, Tue 3-8. Wed it will be at Brampton PIC from 3-8 and expect it will be open on the weekend like Mississauga.

Based on what I heard in the past as well today, the NIMNY folks for Port Credit are out to lunch. They want a subway to Lakeshore at a cost of $750m from the QEW compare to $70m on the surface. They still don't want the line on Port St. Real Dumb.

As for the loop in the city core, still a lot of issues, but the prefer option put forth was Burnhamthorpe, Duke of York, Rathburn and Hurontario. Still a lot of issues going over 403 with talks going on with MTO.

Never supported the loop from Day one as it will waste riders time just like the 19 does today to bypass Sq One regardless if the 103 is running.

Councilor Frank Dale, sadly my councilor fails understand transit, traffic and density to the point of pushing this loop as well down Sq One Dr.

The city can save $135m by removing this loop and use $50m of it to build a 2050 transit terminal next to Hurontario that I recommended back in 2004 pertaining to the BRT.

The most this loop will carry during the day from the local area is less than 1,000 come 2031 and real costly to do so. Peer review from the US and off shore confirms my fact finding.

There will be another PIC in September and news to me.
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Prefer Route
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If I was a decision maker at Metrolinx I would be making sure that control of the car order was not part of the tendering process and instead left to Metrolinx to procure similar to the way that they are ordering buses for multiple agencies. Given the messing at Toronto City Council they may need to avoid another expensive fight with BBD about cancellations by redirecting some cars elsewhere.
 
dowlingm said:
If I was a decision maker at Metrolinx I would be making sure that control of the car order was not part of the tendering process and instead left to Metrolinx to procure similar to the way that they are ordering buses for multiple agencies. Given the messing at Toronto City Council they may need to avoid another expensive fight with BBD about cancellations by redirecting some cars elsewhere.
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Why?? Job protection?

They are over price by both US and Europe standards.

If you are doing a design, build and operation contract, the cars have to be open tender to allow to obtain the best price and the right product as well the operator.

Sorry, I have been on 4400, as well rode various models in Europe. This car would rank #4 on the market. I have been on Berlin brother 4400 45m car and not impress with it.

Ottawa is going with Alston 42m car.

KW is going to the open market for their cars.
 
KW is NOT going to open market for their vehicles. They haven't for a long time, it's been decided for awhile now. They're going to piggyback off the Metrolinx LRV order, saving them money instead of going through their own bidding process.
 
Continuing with the whole "going rogue" on transit expansion theme started by Glen Murray, it is irritating to see Susan Fennel meddle with existing plans.

That said, why not give her a dose of her own medicine? If Mississauga went alone on light rail, it could end the line at Derry Road and force a transfer to Brampton-bound passengers. This seems shortsighted since a "places to grow" growth centre, historic downtown and GO terminal is not connected, but how important of a destination is downtown Brampton in the regional sense, anyway?

This whole debacle actually reminds me of something similar that happened in metro Phoenix. A light rail line was built but one major municipality, Mesa - which is exactly the same size as Brampton - refused to pay for construction and operations so the line was terminated at the municipal border - again, about 4 km away, like downtown Brampton - with a Zum-like service taking over from there. Of course, within a year of the line opening, Mesa clamoured to get the LRT extended to its downtown, but at added cost and a new and separate EA.
 
Really disappointed in the mayor of Brampton on this one. It's a good thing some of her councillors don't share the same view.
 
Hipster Duck said:
Continuing with the whole "going rogue" on transit expansion theme started by Glen Murray, it is irritating to see Susan Fennel meddle with existing plans.

That said, why not give her a dose of her own medicine? If Mississauga went alone on light rail, it could end the line at Derry Road and force a transfer to Brampton-bound passengers. This seems shortsighted since a "places to grow" growth centre, historic downtown and GO terminal is not connected, but how important of a destination is downtown Brampton in the regional sense, anyway?

This whole debacle actually reminds me of something similar that happened in metro Phoenix. A light rail line was built but one major municipality, Mesa - which is exactly the same size as Brampton - refused to pay for construction and operations so the line was terminated at the municipal border - again, about 4 km away, like downtown Brampton - with a Zum-like service taking over from there. Of course, within a year of the line opening, Mesa clamoured to get the LRT extended to its downtown, but at added cost and a new and separate EA.
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Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Really disappointed in the mayor of Brampton on this one. It's a good thing some of her councillors don't share the same view.
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ShonTron said:
I'm planning to go to the LRT open house next Wednesday at the PAMA in downtown Brampton. All this bullcrap that Fennell is pulling should make it a bit more interesting!
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The story has been re-written (at least in the local, Star owned, paper.........the Star's Grewal seems happy to leave it hanging ). Turns out all Fennell was proposing is running Zum buses to Port Credit until the LRT is built....not in place of LRT.

Too bad (IMO) because this LRT plan offers very little value to very few Bramptonians.
 
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