Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[nfitz]

Based on information presented at Metrolinx today, the bridge over the Don is still being looked at and it would cost $100m less than tunnelling. It will run beside Eglinton.

Going from the station map presented, Ellesmere station is gone (which should be) with Oakwood mark in red. Keele and Jane also are marked in red. It shows the 26 stations for the line.

Final numbers of station and location still have to be determined and will be subject to connections as well ridership. There is talk that all GO lines will connect to this line including the RH.

All LRTs will be automated from day one and have the ability to come manual when the line gets extended.

The line is officially known and will be market as the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown line as well CROSSTOWN with Cross being black in colour to match TTC and town in green, to match Metrolinx colour.

There will be 3 PIC in the fall for the design of the first 5 stations that will be come standards for the rest of the system.

Ridership is expected to be 12,000 per hour by 2031 with headway between 90-120 seconds. Off peak will be 6 minutes using 3 cars trains from day one.

Ridership will be the highest east of Yonge and falling off around Dufferin.

Substations will be every 2nd station and will blend into the existing area.

Good summary. Do you know if Metrolinx will be making the presentation public? It's still greyed out on their site, except for the station design.

Not sure why Oakwood would be Red, given TTC award the contract to design the station last week.

Is the ridership estimate people per hour (pph) or people per hour per direction (pphpd)? The BigMove 2031 estimate for Eglinton was 7,800 pphpd (the existing Sheppard subway was only 5,900 pphpd for 2031).

 

[drum118]

Far as I know, all reports are on line.

As for Oakwood, I agree that is odd, but TTC can cancel the contract if they have to, which would be wrong.

12,000pph/pd and they figure that because of the single seat ride from STC as well density along the route that will be built. It would take some of the load of the BD as well at Bloor Station. Yonge will still be over crowded until the DRL gets built.

Steve has asked for ridership numbers on the lines in grey, as they have not been taken into consideration or really looked at.

You can tune in at the next meeting as it well be webcast live. Test run was done today. The new mikes work nice and you can hear things clearly now.

 

[nfitz]

With 12,000 pphpd I hope they leave room for expansion of the platforms. If my math is correct (say each cars has capacity of about 160; say 500 per train) that's a train every 2.5 minutes. If they up to 1.5 minute frequency they could get 20,000 pphpd.

We'll be fine for a few decades ... but one would hope we don't make it too difficult for 50 years down the road.

 

[gweed123]

With 12,000 pphpd I hope they leave room for expansion of the platforms. If my math is correct (say each cars has capacity of about 160; say 500 per train) that's a train every 2.5 minutes. If they up to 1.5 minute frequency they could get 20,000 pphpd.

We'll be fine for a few decades ... but one would hope we don't make it too difficult for 50 years down the road.

Hopefully by that time there will be enough parallel routes (or perpendicular routes that intercept riders) that that capacity will be all that is ever really needed.

 

[Dan416]

I think the duplicate station names won't be a problem as long as we associate the colour of the line with the station name. I just find trying to use "north" or other cardinal directions on stations confusing when you never know what will get built next that might alter that.

What kind of station naming does London or NYC use?

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

What kind of station naming does London or NYC use?

London, along with the vast majority of transit systems in the world, has a unique name for every station. NYC has a lot of duplicate names and the last time I went to NYC I got lost on the subway for exactly that reason. I'm sure it's fine for locals but subways have to be designed for everyone.

I think the duplicate station names won't be a problem as long as we associate the colour of the line with the station name.

And speaking of designing for everyone, there are people out there who cannot see colours.

 

[nfitz]

London, along with the vast majority of transit systems in the world, has a unique name for every station.

London, along with the vast majority of cities outside North America, hasn't got roads on a grid system that go for miles.

In North American cities with grid system, New York is the biggest system. They duplicate names (big time!). Then comes Chicago - and they duplicate names; on the Blue lines there's some station names used twice for 2 different stations. Then comes Washington, which is a bit larger than Toronto - though not as large as Toronto will be once Eglinton and Spadina are built; and they haven't duplicated names.

Either we duplicate names, or we start hyphenating. Anything else is going to create havoc.

So Leslie could be Leslie-Eglinton. Victoria Park could be Victoria Park-Eglinton and Victoria Park-Sheppard. Warden can be Warden-Eglinton and Warden-Sheppard.

 

[Dan416]

nfitz, which do you think is better, duplicate names or hyphenation?

 

[Filip]

I would just name stops after the immediate neighbourhood or some sort of local landmark. I know this may be difficult given the suburban nature of some of the extensions, but I'd rather see "Science Centre" or simply "Science" as the name for Don Mills-Eglinton, Eglinton-Dufferin could be "Fairbank" (its immediate neighbourhood), one of the more easterly stops on Sheppard could be "Tam O' Shanter" after the nabe and so on so forth.

I always found Tam O' Shanter to be one of the most ridiculously awkward names in Toronto, not sure if a subway stop named that would elicit the same amount of laughs from me...

-- I don't see how this would create confusion. You look at a map of where you want to go, you see the stop name and you get off there. That's how it's done in hundreds of other cities in the world that don't name their subway stations after cross streets. Madrid's subway names are almost all the neighbourhoods they serve or local landmarks. I would love to see the DRL names incorporate the landmarks and not cross streets. Instead of Jarvis we should have 'St Lawrence', instead of Mill St we should have 'Distillery', if John St is a stop, it should be hyphenated with CN Tower, as is the nearest subway stop to the Eiffel Tower in Paris.

 

[nfitz]

-- I don't see how this would create confusion. You look at a map of where you want to go, you see the stop name and you get off there.

I've been using the Yonge line for decades, and still struggle to remember which stops St. Andrew, St. Patrick, and Osgoode are. It's only after living near downtown for several years straight, that I'm finally starting to remember. If we didn't have a grid system, then the whole neighbourhood thing might work ... but the grid system just overwhelms us. Even now, I'm not sure I've got straight which GO Station is Scarborough.

 

[Filip]

I've been using the Yonge line for decades, and still struggle to remember which stops St. Andrew, St. Patrick, and Osgoode are. It's only after living near downtown for several years straight, that I'm finally starting to remember. If we didn't have a grid system, then the whole neighbourhood thing might work ... but the grid system just overwhelms us. Even now, I'm not sure I've got straight which GO Station is Scarborough.

The cross street is listed underneath the station name. Even on maps the intersection is outlined beneath the station (or rather its address), still, I don't think this would cause the mass confusion you think it would. If it wasn't for the rather ingenious naming conventions for the University line, my favourite station name, Queen's Park, might have been called College West... *Shudder*

 

[nfitz]

The cross street is listed underneath the station name.

And thank the gods for that. It isn't listed on many subway maps though ... but for years I'd figure out what I wanted by comparing to the matching station on Yonge. Got it straight now ...

Even on maps the intersection is outlined beneath the station (or rather its address)

Not on the one on the TTC site. And that's relatively recent on the trains.

If it wasn't for the rather ingenious naming conventions for the University line, my favourite station name, Queen's Park, might have been called College West... *Shudder*

Queen's Park is on Queen's Park Crescent ... and it's the only subway station on Queen's Park Crescent. No problem there.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

In North American cities with grid system, New York is the biggest system. They duplicate names (big time!). Then comes Chicago - and they duplicate names; on the Blue lines there's some station names used twice for 2 different stations.

Chicago's grid has an all encompassing co-ordinate system which they use to differentiate identically named stations. Toronto has nothing of the sort. Aside from those two systems I can't think of any transit systems which use duplicate names.

And thank the gods for that. It isn't listed on many subway maps though ... but for years I'd figure out what I wanted by comparing to the matching station on Yonge. Got it straight now ...

Not on the one on the TTC site. And that's relatively recent on the trains.

The cross-streets should be on maps, in stations, and probably even announced in the trains themselves. But they aren't strictly necessary for navigation in every case. I doubt anyone has ever gotten lost as a result of Rosedale not being called "Crescent"

Queen's Park is on Queen's Park Crescent ... and it's the only subway station on Queen's Park Crescent. No problem there.

Museum is on Queen's Park Crescent.

 

[gweed123]

One possibility too is when we get the automated "next station" prompts (both visual and auditory), one way to avoid confusion would be to have the prompt read or say "Next Station: Osgoode Station, Queen Street West at University Avenue", or "Next Station: Science Centre Station, Eglinton Avenue East at Don Mills Rd, exit here for Ontario Science Centre". Listing both streets would come in particularly handy for lines that don't necessarily travel under the same street for their entire length (ex: the Spadina line).

Side note: Adding in major tourist attractions into those prompts may also help too. "Exit here for Casa Loma". It may also help locals learn where some of these spots are too .

 

[DavidH]

Museum is on Queen's Park Crescent.

Your larger point is correct that both Museum and Queen's Park stations are actually on the same named street (or at least, the northern exits of Queen's Park station is).

However, that street is NOT Queen's Park Crescent. It's simply called "Queen's Park". The "Crescent" name only applies to those portions of the road that form the traffic circle around the actual Queen's Park. The rest is simply "Queen's Park" with no suffixes.

For proof, see the ROM's contact address on this page:

http://www.rom.on.ca/about/contact.php

Having said that, I'd argue that Queen's Park subway station isn't named for the road, but for the park and for the common name for the provincial legislature.