Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[rbt]

... (the Line 2 extension was voted as being "supported" and still needs to be approved, although at this point it looks like a done deal.)

Not really. The EA is very likely to kick out a large number of issues with the current plan. In fact, I think the Smart-Track proposal killed it, but Tory is taking the politically smart route and letting the experts do the actual killing rather than saying it himself; voters demand we spend millions of their dollars coddling them.

 

[nfitz]

Not really. The EA is very likely to kick out a large number of issues with the current plan. In fact, I think the Smart-Track proposal killed it, but Tory is taking the politically smart route and letting the experts do the actual killing rather than saying it himself; voters demand we spend millions of their dollars coddling them.

I'm not sure how a once every 15-minute commuter rail service would have much impact on travel between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy by those currently on the SRT. Many might still take the subway from Scarborough Centre to Kennedy, and then switch to the GO every 15-minute service.

 

[ehlow]

I'm not sure how a once every 15-minute commuter rail service would have much impact on travel between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy by those currently on the SRT. Many might still take the subway from Scarborough Centre to Kennedy, and then switch to the GO every 15-minute service.

I'm not sure why everyone assumes that SmartTrack or GO RER will operate at an exact frequency of 15 min, no more, no less, all day. GO already operates more frequent than that in some cases during peak hours.

The 15 min figure has always meant 15 min minimum frequency.

Besides, it's simply too early to know the exact service levels of GO RER or SmartTrack. It could very well be every 5 or 10 min at peak times, 15 min off peak.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure why everyone assumes that SmartTrack or GO RER will operate at an exact frequency of 15 min, no more, no less, all day. GO already operates more frequent than that in some cases during peak hours.

GO has no sustained service for more than 2 to 3 departures at better than 15 minutes - unless you count both express and local services, which don't give any riders any real options for better than 15-minute service.

The 15 min figure has always meant 15 min minimum frequency.

Off-peak? I doubt it. And does John Tory's dumber-than-Ford idea actually get people to Scarborough Centre or Sheppard/McCowan? And then there's the long walking distance to transfer from rail at Union to the subway. It's no replacement for either a DRL, or the subway or SRT to Scarborough Centre.

 

[ehlow]

GO has no sustained service for more than 2 to 3 departures at better than 15 minutes - unless you count both express and local services, which don't give any riders any real options for better than 15-minute service.

That's GO now. GO RER could be more frequent than 15 min. We simply don't know at this point. The promise was at least one train every 15 min, it's very plausible that there could be more during peak hours. The service plan is still being worked on.

Off-peak? I doubt it. And does John Tory's dumber-than-Ford idea actually get people to Scarborough Centre or Sheppard/McCowan? And then there's the long walking distance to transfer from rail at Union to the subway. It's no replacement for either a DRL, or the subway or SRT to Scarborough Centre.

I'm not arguing it's a replacement for DRL or service to STC. All I'm saying is that it's possible GO RER on the Stouffville line could have more frequent service than once every 15 min during peak hours.

I don't really want to engage in your Tory comment, I'll just say that I personally disagree with your assessment and that it's been clear after the election that it was never Tory's idea. Tory's team stole or "adapted" the idea of SmartTrack from early GO RER and provincial ideas, and that SmartTrack east is simply GO RER on Stouffville, with more stations and lower fares.

 

[rbt]

I'm not sure how a once every 15-minute commuter rail service would have much impact on travel between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy by those currently on the SRT.

SCC isn't a destination, it's a transfer point (from bus to SRT). Massively boosted service at Millikin and Agincourt (perhaps new stations too), including bus integration with nearby routes, is bound to have some impact on travel patterns. Heck, for some it would mean they don't need to take the bus component to SCC at all.

I'm not sure what the impact would be but that's why we do an EA which considers such things. I'm highly doubtful that the assumptions used to justify the subway are entirely unchanged.

 

[nfitz]

placement for DRL or service to STC. All I'm saying is that it's possible GO RER on the Stouffville line could have more frequent service than once every 15 min during peak hours.

My comment that you responded too was I don't see how it replaces either the DRL, or the SRT/Subway extension. Sure, there's a chance they may be some extra peak-hour runs (presumably some will be express). But that's not my point.

SCC isn't a destination, it's a transfer point (from bus to SRT).

And yet when I arrive at Scarborough Centre on the SRT, many people seem to get off the SRT and walk into the mall. Note, I don't travel in peak, however the SRT seems well used.

Massively boosted service at Millikin and Agincourt (perhaps new stations too), including bus integration with nearby routes, is bound to have some impact on travel patterns. Heck, for some it would mean they don't need to take the bus component to SCC at all.

For some. For those east of McCowan though, it will increase their commute times, and require many to change at Kennedy to the subway. I really don't see having trains every 5 minutes on the Stouffville line that will be stopping at Agincourt, Millikin, and Kennedy.

 

[salsa]

Not really. The EA is very likely to kick out a large number of issues with the current plan. In fact, I think the Smart-Track proposal killed it, but Tory is taking the politically smart route and letting the experts do the actual killing rather than saying it himself; voters demand we spend millions of their dollars coddling them.

As much as I would like the plan to revert back to LRT upon completion of the EA, I'm not sure if the new Kennedy station will be designed for it since the assumption right now is that a subway extension will be built. If Kennedy has to be redesigned again, it could delay the crosstown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not sure why everyone assumes that SmartTrack or GO RER will operate at an exact frequency of 15 min, no more, no less, all day. GO already operates more frequent than that in some cases during peak hours.

The 15 min figure has always meant 15 min minimum frequency.

Besides, it's simply too early to know the exact service levels of GO RER or SmartTrack. It could very well be every 5 or 10 min at peak times, 15 min off peak.

Exactly.

To compare that to Toronto's subways, they operate at approximately 7 minutes or more frequencies.

Metrolinx has always said 15 minutes or more. I can't understand why it's so difficult for people to get that straight.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yonge North has an approved Environmental Assessment. It is far more advanced than the Relief Line.

Isn't there an accelerated EA for the RL underway?

 

[mdrejhon]

Metrolinx has always said 15 minutes or more. I can't understand why it's so difficult for people to get that straight.

It's often confusing for lots:
15 minutes or more [more frequency] -- e.g. fewer minutes, more trains per hour
15 minutes or more [more interval] -- e.g. more minutes, less trains per hour

The terminology, "Minimum 15 minute frequency" means trains no less infrequent than 15 minutes.

However, a sleuth of wording can easily flip it either way, if "minimum" is applied to the "15" number; making 15 the smallest number. Low frequency is the opposite of low interval. Lots of room to confuse, in a series of Chinese whispers, and out-of-context media quoting.

To me, GO RER means trains are at the absolute minimum, as infrequent as 15 minutes in the longest interval between trains, during typical transit off-peak -- go to a station at 1pm or 8pm, wait no more than 15 minutes to catch the train, often far shorter wait.

 

[nfitz]

Metrolinx has always said 15 minutes or more. I can't understand why it's so difficult for people to get that straight.

I don't know ... people seem to think that DumbTrack is going to be frequent. But as you point out, it will be 15 minutes or more between trains much of the time.

 

[ehlow]

It's often confusing for lots:
15 minutes or more [more frequency] -- e.g. fewer minutes, more trains per hour
15 minutes or more [more interval] -- e.g. more minutes, less trains per hour

The terminology, "Minimum 15 minute frequency" means trains no less infrequent than 15 minutes.

However, a sleuth of wording can easily flip it either way, if "minimum" is applied to the "15" number; making 15 the smallest number. Low frequency is the opposite of low interval. Lots of room to confuse, in a series of Chinese whispers, and out-of-context media quoting.

To me, GO RER means trains are at the absolute minimum, as infrequent as 15 minutes in the longest interval between trains, during typical transit off-peak -- go to a station at 1pm or 8pm, wait no more than 15 minutes to catch the train, often far shorter wait.

Yes the language is confusing.

I don't know ... people seem to think that DumbTrack is going to be frequent. But as you point out, it will be 15 minutes or more between trains much of the time.

It's simply too early to determine the frequency of GO RER, other than the provincial Liberal's promise of at least one train every 15 min.

However, we all know that most rapid transit runs more frequent service at peak hours and less frequent service at off peak hours to accommodate different levels of ridership throughout the day. It's not unreasonable to assume that all day GO RER service would run more frequent service during the morning and afternoons, and less late at night.

 

[nfitz]

However, we all know that most rapid transit runs more frequent service at peak hours and less frequent service at off peak hours to accommodate different levels of ridership throughout the day. It's not unreasonable to assume that all day GO RER service would run more frequent service during the morning and afternoons, and less late at night.

There's no indication however that such extra capacity wouldn't be achieved by using express trains, so the effective frequency for riders may well be every 15 minutes, even if a train whizzes past every 5 minutes.

 

[ehlow]

Yearly update:
http://thecrosstown.ca/news-media/whats-new/2014-year-in-review