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[nfitz]

The reason why Pickering, ajax and whitby are so low profile in Toronto is that Durham regions cities are generally very small in comparison to Mississauga Vaughan and Richmond hill plus there are very few jobs in Durham region in comparison to other cities in the region also those 3 cities that you named are all relatively close to subway lines so it simply makes a hell of alot more sense to extend them into neighboring cities that are pretty close to them anyways

Another reason is distance.

If you go to the old centre of the city for measurements - City Hall. Queen and Bay. The distance to Region of York is about 17 km. This distance to Mississauga is about 16 km. This distance to Durham (Pickering) is about 28 km. Heck, it's only 30 km to Halton (Oakville)!

I think people forget how much further Scarborough reaches, compared to Etobicoke. We're talking about extending the Danforth subway to Sheppard and McCowan - 22 km from downtown; it currently goes to Kennedy 16 km from downtown. But no one says anything about the west, where Kipling is less than 14 km from downtown. If we were to go 22 km in the west, it could meet the Cooksville GO station on Hurontario. If you went for 24 km, it would get to Square One - the same distance away as the proposed terminus of the SRT extension at Sheppard East and Markham Road!

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Distance is one factor, especially considering how there's a very marked physical barrier between Metro and Durham in the form of the Rouge Valley.

But from what I've seen I think the biggest factors which keep Durham on a low profile are the relative smallness of it all and, more importantly, the lack of jobs. Travelling through Durham really feels like the most suburban possible experience in the GTA (parts still feel like small-town Ontario even), and it doesn't extend far north at all - Ajax Whitby and Oshawa all transition to rural just north of Taunton Road, which is the same latitude as Steeles (keep in mind that the lake shore is far further north out here too; at the minimum further north than Lawrence). Pickering is rural mostly north of Finch even. And as for lack of jobs, that can't be underscored enough: Pickering has a smaller industrial area and a few offices, as does Ajax, and Whitby and Oshawa both have some good old-fashioned manufacturing, but by and large Durham is a series of bedroom communities. Couple these factors with extremely low density and we become pretty obscure, at least so far as transit goes.

I would also like to note that I disagree with the idea that Durham is centred around Oshawa. Whitby and Oshawa are closely tied together, being as they're older and from the same small manufacturing town stock (also more conservative and whiter), while Pickering and Ajax are quite starkly different, being developed mostly as post-war bedroom community suburbs (and accordingly more diverse as well).

 

[DavidH]

The reason is population. Durham region has about 600,000 people, which isn't much bigger than Halton region (a bit more than 500,000 people). In comparison, York Region has a little over a million. Peel Region is about 1.3 million.

If you look at the density statistics for the four regions;

Durham is at about 241 / km2
..
Toronto 4149 / km2
..

It seems simple why people laugh at the idea of a subway to Durham. It is kind of ludicrous.

I'm certainly not agitating for a subway to Durham, but your comparison is flawed. Durham Region is four times the size of the City of Toronto, and most of it is very much rural or small town. Those areas can be ignored for this discussion; no one is advocating for a subway to Port Perry.

The fairer comparison would be to look at the core "urbanized" area near the lake where most of the population lives. While I'm sure the density of that area still isn't equal to the city of Toronto as a whole (given the density of central Toronto), it's surely in line with other suburban areas.

Also, traditionally Durham region is focused around Oshawa, the same way the Hamilton CMA is focused around Hamilton the city. Peel, Halton and York region are more centered around Toronto.

"Traditionally", yes, but that's hardly true any more. There are far more people headed westward in the morning than to Oshawa.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Oshawa however is still a major job centre which detracts from the atypical "Toronto suburb" form that York and peel are. Oshawa contains roughly 1/2 of Durhams urban population and has well over 50% of its residents working within the region.

Durham is also the cheapest part of the GTA, and just in general is the "lowest common denominator" in the hierarchy of GTA suburbs. And this is coming from someone who lives in Durham.

 

[1overcosc]

Thanks for the response everyone, it all makes sense now.

I wonder if with the 407 extension & Pickering Airport in the works, Durham will start to grow more.

One thing that I find interesting looking at Toronto's transit plans is that there seems to be no rapid transit of any kind between Durham & York, other than through Scarborough. With Pickering Airport coming to the Durham/York border area its really starting to look like a hole in the long term transit plan.

 

[CityPlaceN1]

Pearson is certainly a big factor in the west as is the proximity to the US. A lot closer.

 

[Uncle Teddy]

TBM halfway between Dufferin and Oakwood. Won't be long before it hits Allen.

 

[wopchop]

I'm certainly not agitating for a subway to Durham, but your comparison is flawed. Durham Region is four times the size of the City of Toronto, and most of it is very much rural or small town. Those areas can be ignored for this discussion; no one is advocating for a subway to Port Perry.

The fairer comparison would be to look at the core "urbanized" area near the lake where most of the population lives. While I'm sure the density of that area still isn't equal to the city of Toronto as a whole (given the density of central Toronto), it's surely in line with other suburban areas.

A fair point, but you are sort of supporting what I said. Durham is mostly rural or small town. I'm sure that certainly plays a role in the lack of subway access. Also, York Region also contains large rural areas (northern Vaughan, Stouffville, King township, Simcoe). The distance from downtown, as noted above, is also a factor.

But that's a interested point, so I looked at the statistics for the specific towns / cities. I know that these below areas might contain some "non-urbanized land", but it definitely does not include the rural areas to the north (ie. Port Perry), and I've also included "non-urbanized land" in Vaughan, Markham, Oakville, Burlington ... so, close enough?

-Durham-
Pickering - Size: 231.59 km2, Population: 88,721, Density: 383.1/km2
Whitby - Size: 146.53 km2, Population: 122,022, Density: 832.7/km
Oshawa - Size: 145.68 km2, Population: 157,000 Density: 1,027.0/km2
Ajax - Size: 67.07 km2, Population: 109,600, Density: 1,634.2/km2

-York-
*Aurora - Size: 49.78 km2, Population: 53,203, Density: 1,068.8/km2
Vaughan - Size: 273.52 km2, Population: 288,301, Density: 1,054.0/km2
Markham - Size: 212.47 km2, Population: 301,709, Density: 1,420/km2
Richmond Hill - Size: 100.95 km2, Population: 185,541, Density: 1,838.0/km2
*Newmarket - Size: 38.33 km2, Population: 79,978, Density: 2,086.3/km2

-Peel-
Brampton - Size: 266.71 km2, Population: 523,911, Density: 1,964.35/km2
Mississauga - Size: 292.40 km2, Population: 713,443, Density: 2,439.9/km2

-Halton-
Burlington - Size: 185.66 km2, Population: 175,779, Density: 946.8/km2
Oakville - Size: 138.88 km2 , Population: 182,520, Density: 1,314.2/km2


Obviously not a perfectly study, but it's pretty clear that the four major cities of Durham (Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, Oshawa) are less populated and less dense, in general than the cities of Peel, York, and Halton. Less density generally means less subway feasibility.

But now we are really off-topic, so let's carry on...

* for comparison, Newmarket / Aurora is approximately the same driving distance from downtown Toronto as Whitby.

 

[TOareaFan]

The fairer comparison would be to look at the core "urbanized" area near the lake where most of the population lives. While I'm sure the density of that area still isn't equal to the city of Toronto as a whole (given the density of central Toronto), it's surely in line with other suburban areas.

A fair point, but you are sort of supporting what I said. Durham is mostly rural or small town. I'm sure that certainly plays a role in the lack of subway access.

And I think you are both pointing out why there is very little "ask" for subways from within Durham people itself. Even with their relatively smaller populations, having most of their population in the south end of the region means that a greater portion of people are well served by the current GO service.

Compare that to, say, Mississauga....yes they have the same 30 minute GO service as the Durham municipalities but a much lower percentage of the population of Mississauga is centred around that GO service.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Thanks for the response everyone, it all makes sense now.

I wonder if with the 407 extension & Pickering Airport in the works, Durham will start to grow more.

One thing that I find interesting looking at Toronto's transit plans is that there seems to be no rapid transit of any kind between Durham & York, other than through Scarborough. With Pickering Airport coming to the Durham/York border area its really starting to look like a hole in the long term transit plan.

Can confirm that lack of a good transit connection between Durham and York is a problem. A large percentage of the workforce from Durham (from my network of family & friends & acquaintances across Durham at least) commutes to Markham, Richmond Hill, and Vaughan and currently has basically one option to do so: car. Hopefully with the 407 East and WDL complete (even though I'm not the greatest fan of the WDL), GO will get on fixing its 407 Bus service to be, well, usable.

And don't think for a minute that the Pickering Airport is a done deal. It was supposedly a done deal back in the 1970s, and managed to get shelved back then. Flaherty dragged the issue back up from the dead in 2013, but since his resignation and subsequent death the issue has been completely silent, while the airport continues to receive significant opposition from the people who actually live here. Were it that most of our politicians had their way, however, yes the airport would go in, and yes they would want to pave over our large tracts of greenspace for employment lands up north.

Now as much as I'm happy that Durham is getting some discussion and spotlight (again, we are generally ignored ) we're quite off topic from Eglinton here. Should there be perhaps a Durham Region thread?

 

[ksun]

Can confirm that lack of a good transit connection between Durham and York is a problem. A large percentage of the workforce from Durham (from my network of family & friends & acquaintances across Durham at least) commutes to Markham, Richmond Hill, and Vaughan and currently has basically one option to do so: car. Hopefully with the 407 East and WDL complete (even though I'm not the greatest fan of the WDL), GO will get on fixing its 407 Bus service to be, well, usable.

I found this discussion a bit redundant.
Those who choose to live in Pickering while working in Markham usually know what they are getting into and that they would most likely need to drive to anywhere they need to go. Put commute aside, do man people in Pickering actually using the transit even locally to go shopping/dining/entertainment? I doubt that. then why expect a convenient transit to Markham?

Plus if one decides to live in a low density city such as Pickering or Ajax, he should know that car is probably the only way to travel around. The lower the density, the less sense it makes to build great transit because it is financially less viable. People in Toronto and to a less extent Markham do pay higher property prices for the better transit options. You can't have it both ways. Living in Pickering and working in Markham is a bad decision to begin with, sorry for being a bit judgmental.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Can I ask a question? I'm not from Toronto and my experience with the city is pretty low (I'm an onlooker from Kingston). Why is Durham so low profile in Toronto? People seem to always talk about Mississauga, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, etc. but nobody really talks about Pickering or Ajax. On this forum, people debate about whether the subway extensions to Vaughan or Richmond Hill are worth it (some like the idea, some against) and some people talk/fantasize about subways to Mississauga... but the idea of a subway to Pickering would just make people laugh, even though Pickering is really the same as Vaughan or Miss... it's a municipality immediately adjacent to Toronto.

I'm not trying to criticize or judge, I'm just genuinely curious about this.

The reason why Pickering, ajax and whitby are so low profile in Toronto is that Durham regions cities are generally very small in comparison to Mississauga Vaughan and Richmond hill plus there are very few jobs in Durham region in comparison to other cities in the region also those 3 cities that you named are all relatively close to subway lines so it simply makes a hell of alot more sense to extend them into neighboring cities that are pretty close to them anyways

Also, traditionally Durham region is focused around Oshawa, the same way the Hamilton CMA is focused around Hamilton the city. Peel, Halton and York region are more centered around Toronto.

Distance is one factor, especially considering how there's a very marked physical barrier between Metro and Durham in the form of the Rouge Valley.

But from what I've seen I think the biggest factors which keep Durham on a low profile are the relative smallness of it all and, more importantly, the lack of jobs. Travelling through Durham really feels like the most suburban possible experience in the GTA (parts still feel like small-town Ontario even), and it doesn't extend far north at all - Ajax Whitby and Oshawa all transition to rural just north of Taunton Road, which is the same latitude as Steeles (keep in mind that the lake shore is far further north out here too; at the minimum further north than Lawrence). Pickering is rural mostly north of Finch even. And as for lack of jobs, that can't be underscored enough: Pickering has a smaller industrial area and a few offices, as does Ajax, and Whitby and Oshawa both have some good old-fashioned manufacturing, but by and large Durham is a series of bedroom communities. Couple these factors with extremely low density and we become pretty obscure, at least so far as transit goes.

I would also like to note that I disagree with the idea that Durham is centred around Oshawa. Whitby and Oshawa are closely tied together, being as they're older and from the same small manufacturing town stock (also more conservative and whiter), while Pickering and Ajax are quite starkly different, being developed mostly as post-war bedroom community suburbs (and accordingly more diverse as well).

Oshawa however is still a major job centre which detracts from the atypical "Toronto suburb" form that York and peel are. Oshawa contains roughly 1/2 of Durhams urban population and has well over 50% of its residents working within the region.

Durham is also the cheapest part of the GTA, and just in general is the "lowest common denominator" in the hierarchy of GTA suburbs. And this is coming from someone who lives in Durham.

These are all good answers. The lack of Jobs is the major, major problem and something that needs to be addressed

http://www.dmg.utoronto.ca/transportationtomorrowsurvey/2006/travel_summaries_for_the_gtha.html

Take a look at this. Over 45 percent of people in both Pickering and Ajax work in Toronto, with minimal interaction with Oshawa. 33 percent of people from Whitby work in Toronto, much more then Oshawa. 20 percent of people from Oshawa work in Toronto. More then Burlington. Durham used to be based around Oshawa, but with declining manufacturing over the years, people have been forced to seek jobs in Toronto, Mississauga and York.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Durham also has the highest teen pregnancy rate in Canada.

 

[Markster]

Well that seems irrelevant.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It could be that one gets bored in Durham so if they had better transit options to travel to Toronto they would have better ways to pass the time, and stuff.