adma
Superstar
What does Kuwabara Payne McKenna Blumberg have to do with this?
You're forgiven. (I've done it too.)
You're forgiven. (I've done it too.)
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TO is now 2nd most expensive city in North America
- Thread starter wyliepoon
- Start date
Glen
Senior Member
Dichotomy
Banned
Wow. So, posting a KPMB report that seems to indicate there are troubles in the city is NOT appropriate to this discussion, nor are personal anecdotes?
What else is left, then?
Toronto is expensive as hell to live in. Anyone who has lived ANYWHERE else can attest to that. We pay the highest car insurance in North America. Our gas prices are higher than out west or in the States. Our rents and cost of housing are higher than most American cities. It costs more to own and operate a car here, our transit is more expensive than many places (Chicago's 'cash' fare is $2) Clothing is more than the States, as are electronics and most everything else.
Have you any idea what our temperature differential alone costs to heat and light an office/factory/warehouse, as opposed to, say, Atlanta or Memphis?
If you were a CEO of a major company thinking about opening a head office in Canada, where would you go? I, for one, would not open in the core of this city. I might look at Mississauga or Oakville, but not Toronto. The business model just isn't there.
What else is left, then?
Toronto is expensive as hell to live in. Anyone who has lived ANYWHERE else can attest to that. We pay the highest car insurance in North America. Our gas prices are higher than out west or in the States. Our rents and cost of housing are higher than most American cities. It costs more to own and operate a car here, our transit is more expensive than many places (Chicago's 'cash' fare is $2) Clothing is more than the States, as are electronics and most everything else.
Have you any idea what our temperature differential alone costs to heat and light an office/factory/warehouse, as opposed to, say, Atlanta or Memphis?
If you were a CEO of a major company thinking about opening a head office in Canada, where would you go? I, for one, would not open in the core of this city. I might look at Mississauga or Oakville, but not Toronto. The business model just isn't there.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
First, it is KPMG. Second, I suggest you actually read the report as you clearly haven't. Third, I brought it up because it refutes you're point that Toronto has more tax than Moscow in 1985.
Toronto is "expensive" as hell, except for the other 53 cities that are more expensive including a good showing from Africa and Eastern Europe. Toronto also has some of the cheapest gas in Canada, only Edmonton and Calgary beat us (would you expect anything else?). As for the rest of you're metrics, they are included in the Mercer report which places us as the 54th most expensive city on earth. God lord, the horror. Riga is more expensive than Toronto, so is Douala and Almaty.
Dichotomy
Banned
You do know Toronto is in North America, don't you? Perhaps googlearth would be a good place to start.
I don't care if Africa is more expensive. Toronto competes with the likes of Chicago, Memphis, Seattle, Montreal and other cities for jobs and skills.
I don't care if Africa is more expensive. Toronto competes with the likes of Chicago, Memphis, Seattle, Montreal and other cities for jobs and skills.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Perhaps google earth would also tell you that N. America is in the world. It's called globalization. And according the "KPMB" (idiot) report you seem to think "indicates Toronto has serious problems" the Toronto area has a more competitive tax structure than any city you just listed save Montreal. In an earlier "KPMB" (in case you still don't get it, you are an idiot) Toronto is also less costly for an expat than any of the cities you listed save Montreal.
MisterF
Senior Member
Well when you become the CEO of a major company you let us know lol. Of the 10 Fortune 500 companies in the GTA, 9 of them are in Toronto and 8 are downtown. But I guess they don't know anything, the business case isn't there
Glen
Senior Member
Well when you become the CEO of a major company you let us know lol. Of the 10 Fortune 500 companies in the GTA, 9 of them are in Toronto and 8 are downtown. But I guess they don't know anything, the business case isn't there
They do know something, Toronto is overpriced for business compared to its neighbours!
http://www.canadascities.ca/pdf/gta0502.pdf
Whoaccio
Senior Member
There really isn't much in that TD report that anybody here wouldn't agree with. At the end of the day, municipalities are only responsible for 7% of taxation in this country. Ultimately, Toronto's economic fate is dictated more by federal and provincial fiscal policy than municipal policy. I don't like Miller, but I doubt much would change if Toronto elected Milton Friedman as mayor. Take Toronto's main industry, finance. Foreign banks aren't even permitted to operate in Canada in any meaningful sense, so how the hell can this sector realistically grow?
Dichotomy
Banned
Well when you become the CEO of a major company you let us know lol. Of the 10 Fortune 500 companies in the GTA, 9 of them are in Toronto and 8 are downtown. But I guess they don't know anything, the business case isn't there
And when did they open up here? In the past few years? Or decades ago? Are they going to stay? That is the key question.
And how do YOU know I am not a CEO of a major company?
Glen
Senior Member
Toronto is responsible for 100% of its tax rate on property (less education). For the most part the Province and Feds apply rates evenly (expect education again). That is the whole point of the TD paper. When Toronto was bleeding jobs and the areas surrounding it were booming it had nothing to do with the province or feds. It was due to Toronto policies.
With respect to managing Toronto's economy Miller, Hall, and Lastman have all failed miserably in managing what is/was within their control.
MisterF
Senior Member
A trend that's common around the world. Even in Europe many, if not most, of the biggest companies are in suburban areas. Still, the biggest of the biggest GTA companies are overwhelmingly concentrated downtown, more so than almost anywhere in the world. Take a look at the Google map on the Fortune 500 website. Next to New York, downtown Toronto has by far the most Fortune 500 companies of any North American downtown. Even Chicago has only 3. Downtown Toronto has more than downtown Los Angeles, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, or Washington. Not only that, but it has more than downtown Zurich, Osaka, Sydney, Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam, Singapore, Hong Kong, and Madrid. In fact, I managed to find only four downtown areas with more Fortune 500 companies than downtown Toronto.
Yup, fleeing to the 905 alright.
The banks and financial companies need to be physically close to each other to do business. Downtown employment is on the rise. Plus with commercial taxes being gradually reduced in the city of Toronto, they're not going anywhere.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Indeed. Perhaps you should read the TD report in a little bit more detail with regards to the role of province and feds in downloading infrastructure, social and settlement programs, which the report acknowledges have a disproportional impact on the City of Toronto. Considering the latter is legally binded to pay for a share of these programs, how do you suppose one can have a balanced budget as required by provincial laws? I know you're going to say budget cuts - but in the event of a strike and the matter ending up in arbitration, how much room does the City have to maneuver? And speaking of which, isn't labour law the purview of the province? Rapid transfer of the tax load to the residents? Like that would have no negative consequences of its' own.
Core-periphery disparity is a regional issue - there is no regional level of governance to deal with it systematically. What we do have, however, is various municipalities in the region cannibalizing each other through temporary fiscal advantages leveraged through greenfield developments. Mississauga, which for years have been held up as the model - is starting to experience that now (as the former inner suburban municipalities of Metro Toronto did).
AoD
Glen
Senior Member
All municipalities were downloaded on. While Toronto may have more of a burden it also receives far more in transfers, at least cancelling out the disparities[/URL]. Furthermore why are Torontonians unable to pay a level of property tax that nearly all other municipalities in the province are able to? And please spare us the song and dance about protecting the poor, so long as the multi residential class is being screwed along with commercial/industrial. This is about political pandering.
The Core-periphery disparity = regional issue remark was preposterous.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Glen:
The transfers you have listed are for mostly health services which the municipalities does NOT pay for in any event (like since when did the City of Toronto pay for hospital services?) - in any case, your errorenous use of these numbers have already been rebutted to years ago on the forum - like do you realize many of the transfers from the province are per diem, with an additional percentage to be paid for by the city? The larger amount of transfer reflects the amount of individuals with the assessed need - it does NOT equate to it being a breakeven situation for the city. In addition, the downloaded services I am talking about - housing, infrastructure and social services - are NOT present to the same extent in the 905. Interesting how you managed to cherry pick the TD report for the conclusions you liked though. Perhaps you need to me to cite those that you don't?
As to property tax rates - I don't need to remind you the difference between rates and actual amount of property taxes paid. As others have already pointed out - there are implications to the socioeconomic structure of the city. And I wasn't the one saying it's about protecting the poor - it's more about protecting the middle class who lives in the city. Regarding my remark - you will just have to wait and see how much pressure there will be to increase commercial/industrial property tax rates in Mississauga as it approaches full build out, and how other municipalities with greenfield will be able to capitalize on that. Not a regional issue, you say?
AoD
The transfers you have listed are for mostly health services which the municipalities does NOT pay for in any event (like since when did the City of Toronto pay for hospital services?) - in any case, your errorenous use of these numbers have already been rebutted to years ago on the forum - like do you realize many of the transfers from the province are per diem, with an additional percentage to be paid for by the city? The larger amount of transfer reflects the amount of individuals with the assessed need - it does NOT equate to it being a breakeven situation for the city. In addition, the downloaded services I am talking about - housing, infrastructure and social services - are NOT present to the same extent in the 905. Interesting how you managed to cherry pick the TD report for the conclusions you liked though. Perhaps you need to me to cite those that you don't?
As to property tax rates - I don't need to remind you the difference between rates and actual amount of property taxes paid. As others have already pointed out - there are implications to the socioeconomic structure of the city. And I wasn't the one saying it's about protecting the poor - it's more about protecting the middle class who lives in the city. Regarding my remark - you will just have to wait and see how much pressure there will be to increase commercial/industrial property tax rates in Mississauga as it approaches full build out, and how other municipalities with greenfield will be able to capitalize on that. Not a regional issue, you say?
AoD