News   Jul 04, 2024
 646     1 
News   Jul 04, 2024
 616     0 
News   Jul 04, 2024
 581     1 

TO is now 2nd most expensive city in North America

God dammit, Toronto is not the second most expensive city! How many times does this need to be pointed out? We jumped in front of Miami and L.A, both of which have seen housing prices implode by 20-30% (thank you very much ABCP) while we were in a real estate boom. At the same time, our dollar shot through the roof (meaning everything our dollar measured in shot through the roof) further underscoring these effects.

The moment Toronto real estate corrects itself, our dollar drops or US real estate strengthens, we are back to 4th or 5th on the list.
 
Okay, let me drag out the 3rd post in this thread, from ducati0000:

"If I had the money I be in Vancouver.Toronto is my birth place but Vancouver is where I can really have the best of both worlds (nature and city living).I'm so tired of Toronto trying to pass it self as a "world class city",it was clean and safe once but that was 10 years ago.Unless we get people who can actually plan a city for the future instead of patch work BS we might be in the same league as the true "world class cities" on this planet.Toronto is a true melting pot of all the races on this world that actually gets a long but we have too many people who has large egos and personally agendas to make this a great city.

In my subsequent postings, I merely replied to this one. I have heard Mayor Miller look to London for its solutions to its traffic problems, which is ludicrous, considering London's size, population and history. Most of Toronto was built AFTER the automobile became important, so our lack of planning is more obvious.
Forgive me if I seem to be overly negative towards Toronto, but its only because I have lived here most of my life and witnessed its decline. It's the armchair critics who don't live here, or who visit once in a while who feel they know what is good for this city.
If Toronto is the 2nd most expensive city in North America and the 401 is the busiest highway in North America (which has been well documented, BTW) then something is seriously amiss. Clearly, our taxes, real estate, and cost of living are out whack, if we have beaten cities like Chicago, Los Angeles and Boston as more expensive.
The more one travels, the more one realizes what a mess this city has become, and unless the trend is reversed there will be a backlash where money, jobs and people will leave this city. By some measures, this is already happening.
Do you think the Mayor of Detroit would have thought its mess today was possible when looked at from the vantage point of the 1950s when it was one of the most prosperous cities in North America?

I suggest those of you who are piling on should go back and read some of the other threads on this site. Every single thread is rife with personal anecdotes and stories. First of all, it's what makes these forums interesting, and secondly, we are hostages of our vantage points and personal experiences. Everyone filters and sifts their reality based on what they choose to see or hear. Everyone is guilt of that.

What makes a person visionary or a leader is their ability to rise above their personal feelings and do what is right for the common good. I don't see a lot of that in this city, or on UT.

Dichotomy, my feeling is, if I were to travel w/you to a world class city as a "spousal unit", you'd make the trip so unpleasant as to drown out any world-classness of the experience. But, oh sure, you'd claim "the feeling is mutual".

So, maybe, if that's the case, what is "right for the common good", between you and I, is to break up. Either that or torture each other to the finish a la Norman McLaren's "Neighbours"...
 
I was just in NYC. A condo there roughly equal in size to what I have here would be far more expensive. Maintenance fees alone were around $900 a month there for the equal product.
 
There is a fine line between pride and arrogance. Toronto has a lot to be proud of, but there is no way in hell it is in the same class as Berlin, London, Paris or New York. NO measurement.

I've been to all those places. And I like it here better.

You're correct to say we aren't in the same class. In my mind, we're in a class higher.
 
God dammit, Toronto is not the second most expensive city! How many times does this need to be pointed out? We jumped in front of Miami and L.A, both of which have seen housing prices implode by 20-30% (thank you very much ABCP) while we were in a real estate boom. At the same time, our dollar shot through the roof (meaning everything our dollar measured in shot through the roof) further underscoring these effects.

The moment Toronto real estate corrects itself, our dollar drops or US real estate strengthens, we are back to 4th or 5th on the list.

There is more than just rent or mortgages to pay. Groceries and clothing are generally more expensive in Toronto than in the States. We are paying the highest insurance in Canada and probably the U.S. as well. Our gasoline is certainly higher than the Americans pay. Our higher tax structure in Canada is well documented.

Housing is only one component and, yes, a real estate 'correction' could potentially affect Toronto's place on the list, but odds are the other cities below us are 'correcting' too.
 
There is more than just rent or mortgages to pay. Groceries and clothing are generally more expensive in Toronto than in the States. We are paying the highest insurance in Canada and probably the U.S. as well. Our gasoline is certainly higher than the Americans pay. Our higher tax structure in Canada is well documented.

Yes and no. Our tax structure is marginally higher, but that negates that our governments run large surpluses while Americans run large deficits. Overall, the recent KPMG report on global tax competitiveness ranked Toronto as the 7th most competitive city worldwide (Mtl. Van. Monterrey and some Latin American cities beat us).

http://www.kpmg.ca/en/services/tax/documents/CompetitiveAlternativesFocusonTaxFINAL.pdf

More over, none of those issues you mentioned are truly under municipal jurisdiction. Cities only account for 7% of Canadian government spending, so municipal policy has a negligible impact on overall competitiveness.

Housing is only one component and, yes, a real estate 'correction' could potentially affect Toronto's place on the list, but odds are the other cities below us are 'correcting' too.

The cities below us, LA & Miami, have already corrected. That is the issue, Toronto was out of sync with the housing collapse in those cities. It begs the question: if LA & Miami housing costs continue to decline more than their already calamitous implosion, and Toronto by contrast sees more modest drops, why do you see this as a sign of weakness in Toronto?

We should also keep this in perspective. According to this survey, Toronto is still the 54th most costly city in the world. We are still more affordable than, Riga, Douala (Cameroon), Almaty (Kazakhstan), Kiev, Zagreb & Bratislava. So, lets not run off a cliff that we overtook L.A. (once again, mainly due to a real estate massacre).

EDIT: And besides, who are you to quote Mercer like Gospel? You seem to have no faith whatsoever in Mercer Reports which routinely pan cities like L.A. (which doesn't even make it into the top 50) and affirm that Toronto, for all of it's problems, is still a pretty decent place to live. (Canadian cities swept the top 5 cities in the Americas for Quality of Life).

Canadian cities dominate the rankings in the Americas. Vancouver (4) has the best quality of living followed by Toronto (15), Ottawa (19) and Montreal (22). In the US, after Honolulu (28) comes San Francisco (29), Boston (37) and Chicago (44). Washington, DC, ranks 44, above New York (49).


In Central and South America, San Juan in Puerto Rico retains the highest ranking at 72, followed by Montevideo at 76. Port au Prince in Haiti ranks lowest in the region at 202. In terms of the index, Vancouver scores 107.6 compared to Port au Prince’s 39.8.


In terms of personal safety, Canadian cities again perform best with Calgary, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver all ranked jointly at 22. In the US, Chicago, Honolulu, Houston, Lexington, San Francisco and Winston-Salem all share rank 53. Elsewhere in the region, Santo Domingo has the highest ranking at 92 followed by Panama City (96) and Monterrey (99). Bogota (207) in Colombia has the lowest levels of personal safety. The Canadian cities score 115.8 compared to Bogota’s 30.4.


Mr Parakatil said, “Personal safety within Canadian cities ranks among the highest in the region. This is due to a relatively low crime rate and a stable political environment. In contrast, many of the Latin American cities such as Caracas, Bogotá or Port au Prince continue to be undermined by crime and political and economic turmoil. Traffic congestion and pollution have also had an impact.”
 
dichotomy, you still haven't explained how it is that being expensive is an indication that Toronto is in decline. Winnipeg is pretty cheap, does that mean it's on the rise? What's the reasoning here?
 
Strange the prices in NY, London and Moscow go up and they are the rise yet prices go up here, we are in decline???
 
dichotomy, you still haven't explained how it is that being expensive is an indication that Toronto is in decline. Winnipeg is pretty cheap, does that mean it's on the rise? What's the reasoning here?

Housing is only one component, as I said. Prices in Canada have not completely 'normalized' with respect to our higher dollar. Electronics and groceries are still more expensive, with respect to comparable American cities.
Both Vancouver's and Toronto's apparent 'hot' real estate markets are artificially driven: high immigration rates are forcing housing prices and rental rates higher. Will this continue forever? Ask anyone who bought in '88 or '89 that question. Many of them are just now making money on those properties. I should know: I lost $60k on my house that I bought in '89 and sold in '92.
There are three Torontos: the 'affluent' people who live in Rosedale, Kingsway and Uxbridge, for example; the middle class sandwhiched in their bungaloes in Scarborough, Pickering; and the new immigrants. As long as we keep getting lots of the latter, Rosedale is secure and the middle class may get grumpy, but as long as they have their American Idol reruns and lattes at Starbucks, they won't mind too much.
It's the middle class we should be worried about. If they start leaving their comfy bungaloes in droves because of either crime, horrid traffic, or the flight of jobs, the city will be in deep do-do. This process doesn't happen over night. Our traffic nightmares didn't happen over night. It's an organic, evolving process. Decisions made decades ago (the Allen Expressway, for example) are only now being truly felt.
Nobody knows for sure, but the grumbling is increasing. Believe me, you don't want to be the last person to wake up and realize that we have gone to hell in a handbasket. The middle class in south Asia and China are on the increase. What happens when there are far fewer immigrants to need to escape tyranny?
The city has no reserve funds left. It is hocking the family jewels (Toronto Hydro, for example) to pay the rent! Cutbacks are everywhere.

At what point is this going to cause a 'correction' or 'crash' in real estate prices? People make decisions to move for a variety of reasons. I doubt very much whether the Portlands is built or not matters diddly squat to most people, but spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do that while more hundreds of millions is spent to tear down an existing, functional structure like the Gardiner is going to rattle a few cages.

But the real question is: how many of those unbuilt condos are bought by speculators? How many of the existing units are rented for $1,600 a month, backed by $200k mortgages? :eek:
 
All that rambling about your manifesto and you still didn't answer the question. How do prices reflective of whether a city is in decline or not, as per your assertion?

AoD
 
Yes and no. Our tax structure is marginally higher, but that negates that our governments run large surpluses while Americans run large deficits. Overall, the recent KPMG report on global tax competitiveness ranked Toronto as the 7th most competitive city worldwide (Mtl. Van. Monterrey and some Latin American cities beat us).

http://www.kpmg.ca/en/services/tax/documents/CompetitiveAlternativesFocusonTaxFINAL.pdf

That KPMG report is referring to Toronto CMA, similar to the GTA. Not Toronto proper (the 416) by itself. On many fronts Toronto is the sick man of the CMA.

From Mayor Miller:

It started as a whisper, “Did you hear, that multi-national software company just announced a major investmentâ€â€“ but it wasn’t in Toronto. We shrugged and life went on. Next, there was an occasional article in the daily paper, “Major corporations merge to expand market-share†– but it wasn’t in Toronto. We shrugged and life went on. Until, finally, the whispers became a roar and suddenly everyone was talking about employment sprawl, traffic congestion, and under-employment in Toronto. If we continue to shrug and ignore these warning signs of economic decline, we do so at our peril. As members of the Mayor’s Economic Competitiveness Advisory Committee, we, like many other Torontonians, are noticing some disturbing trends in our city. The economic success that characterized Toronto during the latter half of the twentieth century has become a historical fact rather than a constant characteristic of our city. We’ve seen other cities that years ago were playing catch up to our lead, surpass us in terms of economic growth.



Without continued economic growth, no city can maintain and attract investment, including highly mobile capital and labour. The worst thing we can do is to do nothing. If the status quo continues, we risk being caught in a downward economic spiral of higher taxes, declining services, loss of jobs and less prosperity.



The bad news is that the job growth is happening in the region surrounding Toronto, not in the city itself. This means that while more and more people live in Toronto, increasingly, they must travel, usually by car, to jobs outside the city. And, it shouldn’t come as a surprise then that because of the employment boom outside of Toronto, that median household income in the Toronto region is higher than within the City of Toronto itself, where over the twenty year period of 1980 to 2000 the number of low-income households increased from 18 per cent to 22 per cent of all households in the city.



Employment growth within the city is important for fiscal, social and environmental reasons. A shrinking business and property tax base diminishes Toronto’s ability to adequately provide the social services and other public amenities that are the hallmark of a just and caring society.

Environmental Impacts of Office Location
Annual Impact Downtown Toronto Surrounding Regions
Transit trips 634,800 57,363
Auto kms. 3,259,300 11,153,700
Fuel use (l.) 291,025 995,925
Emissions (kg.) 940,800 3,129,500

Then, there are the personal stresses of long commutes stuck in traffic gridlock to drive to a job that go hand in hand with increased fuel consumption and increased emissions that contribute to environmental stress. It also means that people who do not have access to a car have reduced access to job opportunities. Toronto runs the risk of becoming a “bedroom community†if we don’t take action now.
 
^^ Does all that account for the massive tax hikes that Mississauga and other 905 areas will be eating in the next five years to pay for neglected infrastructure maintenance?
 
Glen:

Where in this thread is the comparison done at a purely municipal level? Nowhere. So what is the point of rehashing your call to arms yet again in this thread? It's getting rather tiresome, for one.

AoD
 
Glen:

Where in this thread is the comparison done at a purely municipal level? Nowhere. So what is the point of rehashing your call to arms yet again in this thread? It's getting rather tiresome, for one.

AoD

Considering the KPMG report is about business investment and the Mayor's message states excplicitly how Toronto is being bypassed by such, I am at a lost that you miss the connection.
 

Back
Top