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The Tenor (10 Dundas St E, Ent Prop Trust, 10s, Baldwin & Franklin)

  • Thread starter billy corgan19982
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Cities around the world, every one of them, everywhere, use New York as a touchstone. Period. It will be this way for a very long time. New York is shorthand for wealth, glamour, and power. Anyone wanting a shorthand for these things will make reference to New York, whatever the attributes of their own city.

The fact that Toronto compares itself to New York has nothing to do with an identity vacuum. It has everything to do with the fact that New York is one of the world's great cities, and furthermore that it is one hour away so its field of gravity is particularly strong right here.

You might as well get over it, because it's not going to change.

I don't think it's the comparison to NY, but the idea that Toronto wants to be NYC and has no real identity of it it's own. I've found this to be totally untrue, except in the media. For some reason they love to perpetuate these strange stereotypes.

It's as though they haven't matured with the city.
 
While New York is internationally recognized as an exemplar of a great city, I highly doubt that every city uses NYC as some sort of standard to approximate its own development. I don't think cities like Paris or London feel as if they need to aspire to be a New York; they have an urban flair of their own that is quite, well, Paris and London. I'm sure some Parisians would be disgusted if their city became known for a New York style sense of brazen urbanity. Asian financial centres like HK or Singapore are confident enough in their own sense of opulence and fortune to have to refer to NY, and then there are cities like Vancouver and San Francisco that I think would never want to be anything like a NY.
However, I think it is not inappropriate for Toronto to reference New York once in a while because Toronto is frankly, a medium-sized city trying to gain world renowned status, and what greater exemplar of that is there than NYC? I don't think we want to become like New York, but there are certainly elements of that city which we wouldn't mind having for ourselves.
 
I don't think it's the comparison to NY, but the idea that Toronto wants to be NYC and has no real identity of it it's own. I've found this to be totally untrue, except in the media. For some reason they love to perpetuate these strange stereotypes.
...as do the rest of the country (even those as close as the 905).
 
The Roof May Still Be Saved

"Bylaws are in place that will allow advertising on the roof of the Toronto Life Square building, but the city isn't looking for the kind of run-of-the-mill signage seen along the Gardiner. "We're hoping that the advertising in Yonge-Dundas Square, as it continues to evolve over time, becomes a lot more playful," says Cambray."




So they are still planning to put advertisements on the top of TLS. That should make many people happy considering that was one of the top complaints about this project. As the article suggests they are holding out for something unique. It may just take some time for something exciting to actually materialize.
 
Blame Peter Ustinov.

An amusing post from nearly a decade ago:

Toronto Vs. New York City

I just returned from a long weekend in New York City. It was my first real trip in two years. Granted, I do make semi-regular trips to lovely Pembroke, Ontario (to visit my girlfriend's family) but this was the first time I'd left the province. A needed fix for my travel addiction.

While in New York, it struck me how much Toronto copies New York. Toronto originally followed the mode set by London until about the 1960's, but has since been following New York's lead.

I am not the first person to compare the two cities: Peter Ustinov describes Toronto as "New York as run by the Swiss" or as the New York Times put it Toronto is "New York without the attitude".

I am only comparing things I actually experienced. If my comparisons seem arbitrary, they probably are...

Empire State Building vs. CN Tower - CN Tower is not only bigger (the tallest structure in the world) but also much more obviously phallic - right down to the bulbous observation deck.

Flatiron Building vs. Flatiron Building - A tie. They even look the same, except that New York's is bigger.

Broadway vs. the Entertainment District - Now that Livent (the Canadian Company that premiered hits such as Ragtime and Showboat in Toronto) is history we don't get anything that hasn't already opened on Broadway.

The Plaza Hotel vs. Royal York Hotel - Royal York may not be as famous, but it has that sense of colonial "Yo Britannia!" history. A must for their High Tea.

Wall St. vs. Bay St. (Toronto's financial district) - Wall St. wins even though it is underwhelming, as it is too short and too narrow, but it has the international power brokers that Toronto lacks.

Central Park vs. High Park - Central Park is much more picturesque and their Children's Zoo is fun even for adults. High Park does have the historical house Colbourne Lodge.

MTA (NYC) Subway vs. TTC Subway - Tie. While the MTA has more routes and stations, connections can often be a 10 minute walk away. Also, 6 security guards with megaphones to do crowd control during rush hour is just too much. Toronto's simplicity allows for a braindead commute.

Upper West Side vs. Forest Hill - Toronto has a long way to get the truly snooty neighbourhoods of New York. I live in Forest Hill, so if they'd have me it isn't nearly exclusive enough. (Apparently, there's a Forest Hills in NYC too.)

The MET(ropolitan Museum of Art) vs. the ROM (Toronto's Royal Ontario Museum) - The Met is one of the best museums in the world. Extra kudos for placing objects in context. You've gotta love the Egyptian Temple.

The MOMA (Museum of Modern Art) vs. the AGO (Art Gallery of Ontario) The AGO wins only because the MOMA sucks so badly. They don't deserve the collection they have. It's badly organized with ugly, tiny galleries with nothing to stimulate the viewer or to educate them. This is all stuff the AGO does nicely, despite their lacklustre collection.

Rockefeller Center vs. BCE Place /TD Centre/ Royal Bank Building. - The latter wins not only due to the clearly superior underground shopping concourse (the largest in the world with 1200 stores) and the fact that the Royal Bank Building is coated with 2500 ounces of real gold.

Ellis Island vs. Toronto Island - Ellis Is. and the nearby Statue of Liberty are American icons. However, just this summer, Toronto opens its first nude public beach at Hanlan's Point on Toronto Is. (Canada's Supreme Court declared a few years ago that it was unconstitutional to prohibit women from going topless. Now women can bare their breasts in Canada anytime they want. Unfortunately, it is usually too cold here for anyone to want to.)

Battery Park vs. Harbourfront- Harbourfront has cool, free live entertainment all summer and a trendy mall. Battery Park is the overcrowded tourist trap at the southern tip of Manhattan. Thousands of tired, poor, huddled masses chaotically wait there to embark on the free ferry ride to Staten Island to see the Statue of Liberty (as we did) The crowds use the same gate to get on and get off the ferry, thereby causing bedlam to ensue. We noticed this same phenomenon on the subway, where you can exit or enter through the same gate. The ferry ride to Toronto Is. from Harbourfont involves lining up to get on and off through separate gates. Our subways work along the same principle. The American love of disorder and chaos was bewildering to us anal retentive Canadians.

Shopping in Manhattan vs. Shopping in Toronto - While wandering for hours trying to find a safe haven from monsoon rain, we wound up in Rockefeller Center (see above). At this point, we were struck by a stunning realization - there are no malls in Manhattan. Malls are everywhere in Toronto (or Canada in general). They are part of the fabric of our society, a place to socialize and seek shelter from the elements. Where do people with no air conditioning in New York hang out on an excruciatingly hot afternoon?

Bloomingdale's vs. The Bay - The Bay (Queen & Yonge) kicks Bloomingdale's butt! Since our hotel was just around the corner, we went to Bloomingdale's, expecting to be amazed by the opulent d�cor and amazing displays. Instead, the store was crowded and kind of grimy looking. By contrast, The Bay looks elegant, with interesting displays and a wonderful gourmet food store and authentic 50's diner in the basement (with cheap food).

Mayor Giuliani vs. Mayor Lastman - Lastman's international coverage as the Spice Girl obsessed politician and his "Nooobody (can beat our low, low prices)" commercial for his Bad Boy furniture store make him more of a "character" mayor.

New Yorkers vs. Torontonians.- New Yorkers, despite their reputation, are friendlier and more helpful in a sarcastic sort of way, with that jaded wit of theirs.

New Jersey vs. Missisauga (Suburb-like city to the west of Toronto) Since Missisauga is hell on earth nothing could be worse.

Atlantic City nearby vs. Casino Rama nearby (located in Orillia, Ontario) Atlantic City is a cool place with a fascinating history, the ocean, the boardwalk, and dozens of larger-than-life theme casinos.(We went there 2 years ago and liked it slightly better than Vegas). Casino Rama is a smoke-infested overpriced hole in the middle of nowhere.

Manhattan's sidewalks vs. Toronto's sidewalks - Our first view of New York was the Midtown neighbourhood outside the Port Authority bus terminal. The area was litterred, run-down, and had a horrible stench of decaying garbage. More swanky neighbourhoods were less stinky, but overall, Toronto is much cleaner and better smelling. We like to boast that American movie/tv crews filming something in Toronto that is set in New York have to import garbage onto the streets to give an authentic look.

Even though the scores are similar, all things considered, New York kicks Toronto's ass several times over! But Toronto is a young, upstart city which really gets better every year and kicks its share of ass. (Just not Buffalo's - I hate loosing at hockey to such a crappy city!)
 
Bloomingdale's vs. The Bay - The Bay (Queen & Yonge) kicks Bloomingdale's butt! Since our hotel was just around the corner, we went to Bloomingdale's, expecting to be amazed by the opulent d�cor and amazing displays. Instead, the store was crowded and kind of grimy looking. By contrast, The Bay looks elegant, with interesting displays and a wonderful gourmet food store and authentic 50's diner in the basement (with cheap food).
Interesting, but I don't agree.
 
Of course, it would also be possible to compare Toronto to any other city that had parks, suburbs, streets and department stores in that way. By that standard, we are also emulating Tokyo, not to mention Tel Aviv and Toledo as well.
 
"Bylaws are in place that will allow advertising on the roof of the Toronto Life Square building, but the city isn't looking for the kind of run-of-the-mill signage seen along the Gardiner. "We're hoping that the advertising in Yonge-Dundas Square, as it continues to evolve over time, becomes a lot more playful," says Cambray."




So they are still planning to put advertisements on the top of TLS. That should make many people happy considering that was one of the top complaints about this project. As the article suggests they are holding out for something unique. It may just take some time for something exciting to actually materialize.

Renderings up until last fall illustrated various roof topping designs ranging from beveled glass panels to decorative metal doo-dads. Hopefully something flashy and over-the-top will finish off the roof line appropriately and hide the HVAC equipment. The absence of such in the latest renderings was disappointing.
 
Atlantic City nearby vs. Casino Rama nearby (located in Orillia, Ontario) Atlantic City is a cool place with a fascinating history, the ocean, the boardwalk, and dozens of larger-than-life theme casinos.(We went there 2 years ago and liked it slightly better than Vegas). Casino Rama is a smoke-infested overpriced hole in the middle of nowhere.

I think the writer forgot about Niagara Falls.
 
I'm not sure why copying new york is such a bad thing. it's like using your big brother/sisters clothes, or maybe appropriating their music for a while until you figure out you actually like something else that's better...toronto is young. the copying will eventually fade and be incorporated into a bigger and better identity.

I think not beating this silly dead horse of a debate into an absolutely disgusting pulp, would a good start.
 
Cities around the world, every one of them, everywhere, use New York as a touchstone. Period. It will be this way for a very long time. New York is shorthand for wealth, glamour, and power. Anyone wanting a shorthand for these things will make reference to New York, whatever the attributes of their own city.

The fact that Toronto compares itself to New York has nothing to do with an identity vacuum. It has everything to do with the fact that New York is one of the world's great cities, and furthermore that it is one hour away so its field of gravity is particularly strong right here.

You might as well get over it, because it's not going to change.

I have to disagree here. Do Boston or Montreal or Philadelphia or any other number of cities closer to New York than Toronto so constantly 'shorthand' NYC? Of course New York is famous but I don't think a condo development on the Boston Common would reference a 'Central Park' view...

The difference with the other 'great' cities of North America is that they have their own established histories and strong collective identities to reference. I'm not denying that NYC references happen in other places, they surely do, but not to the same degree as in Toronto where it is so widespread that it is almost embarrassing. When my American partner moved here with me several years ago it was something he noticed very quickly.
 
Why on earth shouldn't Toronto consider itself alongside New York? We're a major creative centre on this continent, with strong connections to them, we're the second or third largest employer of designers after them in the North American context, and within the Canadian context we are New York in terms of our economic and cultural clout.
 

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