Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[urbanfan89]

I hope this does not entail regauging the existing streetcar system.

If it did, I'll put money on the regauging project being permanently "suspended" and permanently "temporarily replaced" with buses.

 

[nfitz]

^ Exactly as I predicted. I have a feeling we'll see TC lines adopt standard gauge as well. We'll know in a few months when the announcement comes.

Hang on ... your suggesting that the TTC would, at the intersection of Jane and St. Clair have two incompatible gauges?

If you think that any new TTC LRT lines will be anything but the same gauge as the rest of the system, then you are grossly mistaken!

 

[CapitalSeven]

The Hamilton .PDF document mentions Siemens Combino Plus, but the illustration is the S70, not the Combino.

 

[EnviroTO]

The difference in guage doesn't really add much to the cost. The single pole switches cause far more issues since it requires wheels on both sides of the vehicle to be connected to each other With normal switches the wheels on both sides can swing independent of the other side because the track guides both wheels along the proper path. The older streetcars would have no problem following the track with normal switches but most off-the-shelf tram/LRT equipment will have issues with single pole switches. I see little benefit in changing guage but a big benefit in slowly phaing out single pole switches.

Hamilton using standard guage probably isn't the best idea since a combined Metrolinx purchase of vehicles would probably save money if the contract covered vehicles for Toronto and Hamilton at the same time. Oakville and Burlington having LRT is so far off I guess the planners aren't concerned and in the future a strategically placed transfer point would eliminate any problems from an operational perspective.

 

[kEiThZ]

Hang on ... your suggesting that the TTC would, at the intersection of Jane and St. Clair have two incompatible gauges?

If you think that any new TTC LRT lines will be anything but the same gauge as the rest of the system, then you are grossly mistaken!

As I have suggested before, the TC vehicles will be incompatible with the existing streetcar network for reasons other than their gauges. So the point about Jane and St. Clair is not necessarily relevant if the ROW is not designed to use TC LRT in the first place (I wish they did, but that's a separate issue). The concern with any LRT should be what happens across the 416/905 boundaries. And that largely depends on the neighbours. If they want to use standard gauge, they will, and if the TTC wants to run LRT across the boundary it'll have to conform.

That's not to say the standard can't be TTC gauge. I'd be happy as long as there is a standard that facilitates inter-regional travel. I just think that standard is likely to be standard gauge because well, they don't call it 'standard' for nothing. And I guess the Hamilton example proves my point. It'll be interesting to see what Mississauga and York eventually have for gauge standards.

 

[kEiThZ]

Hamilton using standard guage probably isn't the best idea since a combined Metrolinx purchase of vehicles would probably save money if the contract covered vehicles for Toronto and Hamilton at the same time. Oakville and Burlington having LRT is so far off I guess the planners aren't concerned and in the future a strategically placed transfer point would eliminate any problems from an operational perspective.

Hamilton probably does not want to be beholden to a TTC standard. If they are then any sort of technical policy will be set by the TTC. In any combined buy as well, the TTC needs will probably override Hamilton's concerns. I am guessing that it's a train of thought like this that lead to a decision to use standard gauge. I could be totally wrong of course. They may have just drawn straws!

 

[MisterF]

As I have suggested before, the TC vehicles will be incompatible with the existing streetcar network for reasons other than their gauges. So the point about Jane and St. Clair is not necessarily relevant if the ROW is not designed to use TC LRT in the first place (I wish they did, but that's a separate issue). The concern with any LRT should be what happens across the 416/905 boundaries. And that largely depends on the neighbours. If they want to use standard gauge, they will, and if the TTC wants to run LRT across the boundary it'll have to conform.

That's not to say the standard can't be TTC gauge. I'd be happy as long as there is a standard that facilitates inter-regional travel. I just think that standard is likely to be standard gauge because well, they don't call it 'standard' for nothing. And I guess the Hamilton example proves my point. It'll be interesting to see what Mississauga and York eventually have for gauge standards.

Keithz, you haven't answered my question. Why are future routes crossing municipal boundaries more important than connections with the existing system? And again I really think you're overstating how separate Transit City will be from the existing network. St. Clair streetcars could easily run on Jane in the future even if it won't happen anytime soon. The potential issues other than gauge that you mention can all be overcome.

It's kind of a moot point though. You're making it sound like the 905 regions will select a gauge and the TTC will conform to that, when in reality it's the other way around. Transit City lines will be operational long before any light rail is built in York or Peel. So it's the 905 that will have to conform to the TTC.

 

[EnviroTO]

Hamilton probably does not want to be beholden to a TTC standard. If they are then any sort of technical policy will be set by the TTC. In any combined buy as well, the TTC needs will probably override Hamilton's concerns. I am guessing that it's a train of thought like this that lead to a decision to use standard gauge. I could be totally wrong of course. They may have just drawn straws!

I doubt they gave TTC gauge any consideration at all. New York and Toronto worked together with Orion to design the criteria for buses because it was obvious that most transit organizations want exactly the same things such a durability, affordability, maintainability, etc. I can't imagine any TTC technical policy would turn Hamilton off an equipment purchasing decision. Organizations tend to go with the standard unless a compelling reason is presented for them not to. I doubt they even had a discussion about the possibility of joint purchasing with the TTC or the possibility Metrolinx might control local transit in the future.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why are future routes crossing municipal boundaries more important than connections with the existing system?

If we are designing a network to get as many people of the roads as possible, I would suspect that inter-regional routes would be more important, no? The transit city routes will be carrying far more people, longer distances and connecting to many more extra-regional services than any of our streetcar routes today. Would that not mean that they deserve special consideration?

You're making it sound like the 905 regions will select a gauge and the TTC will conform to that, when in reality it's the other way around. Transit City lines will be operational long before any light rail is built in York or Peel. So it's the 905 that will have to conform to the TTC.

I concede that your scenario is likely....unless, other cities get the jump on the TTC. The Hamilton case is a good example.

Organizations tend to go with the standard unless a compelling reason is presented for them not to.

This is the point I made earlier though. Non-standard clauses cost money (even if that cost is fairly small it's not zero). That's why cities will default to standard gauge. That's exactly the prediction I made earlier. And it's exactly why Hamilton made the choice it did.

Personally, I would really like Metrolinx to step in and introduce a standard be that TTC gauge or standard gauge to ensure that we don't have to change vehicles every time we hit a municipal boundary.

 

[EnviroTO]

Non-standard clauses cost money (even if that cost is fairly small it's not zero). That's why cities will default to standard gauge.

What I am saying is that I don't think they looked at the difference in cost at all. As part of a larger order it may have saved them money to go with TTC gauge but I really don't think it showed up as a discussion item. The TTC will probably get it's LRT vehicles cheaper than Hamilton due to the size of the order. With small orders or when unloading surplus having "standard" saves money, but with large orders it really matters very little. Most transit vehicles are made fairly manually rather than on a robotic assembly line so it really doesn't change the cost equation much to move things around to your liking. Consider the line producing all the TTC vehicles and then a few Hamilton vehicles are made on the same line with differences... on that production line the TTC vehicle "is the standard" and the Hamilton vehicle will be the one with differences thus costing more.

 

[nfitz]

As I have suggested before, the TC vehicles will be incompatible with the existing streetcar network for reasons other than their gauges.

You have, and that made no sense at the time, and I pointed that out at the time. There is nothing stopping them using the new vehicles for the RT routes on the existing system, given that they will be very similiar specs, with the exception of the second cab.[/QUOTE]

 

[kEiThZ]

Consider the line producing all the TTC vehicles and then a few Hamilton vehicles are made on the same line with differences... on that production line the TTC vehicle "is the standard" and the Hamilton vehicle will be the one with differences thus costing more.

How so? That only happens if it's a joint buy from the same plant. However, there's a real possibility that Toronto, Hamilton and other GTHA transit authorities could all choose different manufacturers. And even if you were Siemens setting up a manufacturing line, would you set up the line only to cater to TTC. Of course not. You set up the line to sell to multiple markets around the world, most of which use standard gauge.

You have, and that made no sense at the time, and I pointed that out at the time. There is nothing stopping them using the new vehicles for the RT routes on the existing system, given that they will be very similar specs, with the exception of the second cab.

Grades, curve/turning radius requirements, etc. Would that not prevent the TC LRT vehicles from being deployed on current streetcar routes? That's what I've heard before. If I am wrong I stand corrected.

Anyway, I am not advocating one way or another. I just want a standard that makes it possible for me to take the Don Mills LRT to Hwy 7 or the Eglinton LRT to Mississauga. I would think that would mean the TTC has to have the same gauge as other transit systems. Whatever that is, doesn't really concern me. I'd be just as happy if Metrolinx stepped in and slapped on TTC gauge as the standard for the GTHA. That's what I have suggested here before. I have only suggested that from where I sit, I think that it might be more likely that new systems would adhere to more global standards in the absence of any other government directives. And that certainly seems to be the case with Hamilton. I fear that if this keeps up, inter-regional travel particularly between the 416/905 will suffer significantly. That's not something I want to see happen.

 

[EnviroTO]

How so? That only happens if it's a joint buy from the same plant. However, there's a real possibility that Toronto, Hamilton and other GTHA transit authorities could all choose different manufacturers. And even if you were Siemens setting up a manufacturing line, would you set up the line only to cater to TTC. Of course not. You set up the line to sell to multiple markets around the world, most of which use standard gauge.

Really?? Of course not?? You sound overly optimistic.

Most industrialized countries including the US include buy local clauses in their contracts. Most Canadian bus manufacturers have needed to open US factories to sell into that market. Thunder Bay could produce the subway equipment for NYC but it doesn't because of content rules and instead Bombardier had to open a plant in New York state. A Siemens plant in Toronto isn't going to have any more luck selling into the US than Bombardier, New Flyer, and Orion have from this side of the border. There are already Bombardier and Siemens plants in Asia which can target that region with much lower costs and the plants in Europe would most likely be selected to build LRTs in Europe. The plant Siemens builds here will be targeting the Canadian market and the TTC will be their largest customer.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Okay. But what about other markets within Canada other than the GTA. Urban transit is undergoing a renaissance of late with particular emphasis on light rail. Last time around, Siemens won in Ottawa. What's the chance that OC Transpo would pick TTC gauge for their LRT? And as we have seen it's quite clear that not all of the GTHA is going to go along with the TTC's unique standard either. The TTC will be their biggest customer. But the TTC won't come anywhere close to the number of orders using standard gauge coming in from the rest of the country.

 

[kettal]

This has nothing to do with being London or Paris. I'm not that shallow. You did, however, address my point in your post: if TC vehicles are too large to corner a legacy streetcar curve, they won't be able to travel on the old streetcar network to begin with. Therefore, why bother sharing the same, obscure track gauge?

Actually, it hasn't come up in discussion yet, but just as importantly, what voltage do we want TC to use? The 600 V DC that is used by the TTC, and only the TTC, or the 750V DC that practically every other light rail operator in North America currently uses?

Although the legacy network uses a specific track gauge and voltage, it would be much more flexible if Transit City used a standard gauge and voltage. For one, it would allow surplus vehicles to be acquired from another city with much more ease.

The Transit City vehicles will likely be incompatible with the existing network, but only to the point where they must avoid the problem intersections.

I can imagine the Long Branch line (or whatever it's future incarnation will be) will connect with Mississauga, and need to be modified to take "LRT" vehicles. St. Clair as well (and we might see St. Clair interlining with Jane LRT).

The safest option is to use TTC gauge throughout. Just like TTC gauge was used in the subways.

Ottawa is irrelevant.