Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[dunkalunk]

Variable-Guagued Bogies?

 

[kEiThZ]

Why do you say that it's quite likely that the rest of the GTHA will adopt standard gauge? It would be very shortsighted on YRT's part to adopt a gauge that's incompatible with Toronto. Besides, Metrolinx would likely ensure that there's a standard GTA-wide LRT gauge. Even if YRT has standard gauge, for the TTC it would be more important for the Jane line (to use your example) to connect with current lines like St. Clair than with a hypothetical Highway 7 LRT that might get built sometime in the future. That connection is even shows on the Transit City map.

I think you’re overestimating how separate the TC lines would be from the existing network. There are lots of opportunities for connections, especially when you think 20, 50, or 100 years from now. Routes and vehicles change, the track gauge is there for good. Interconnectivity within the same region is far more important than being consistent with a world standard that, for all intents and purposes, is irrelevant to Toronto. You said yourself that the benefits of using a different gauge would be marginal. But it’s still not clear what even those marginal benefits might be.

I think you misread my posts. I stated several times that I support a standard that would facilitate travel across municipal boundaries. That means the Jane LRT should be able to cross Steeles without a break of gauge.

As to the likelihood of the 905 municipalities choosing different gauges, we'll see in a year or two when Hurontario and Hamiliton's plans are further along. But I can't see them acquiescing to the TTCs standards without some pressure from Metrolinx to begin with. It's more likely that Mississauga would agree to use TTC gauge. But can you realistically see Hamilton agreeing to the same? The benefits may be marginal but there are costs associated with having non-standard requirements. I would figure that most of the municipalities in this region will prefer to avoid those costs, even if they are marginal.

When it comes to TC and the current streetcar network, I guess it depends on how you see the growth of the current network. TC will have separate carhouses and a complete network. There's no TC line that's isolated and has to rely on the current streetcar network. If the TTC really wanted to, they could effectively end the growth of the current streetcar network and mandate that all the TC lines and new streetcar lines in the suburbs (which are more likely to interact with the TC network) use standard gauge. The impact on cross-boundary travel would be minimal since none of today's streetcar routes come anywhere close to crossing the 416-905 divide.

Ultimately, it's not that big a deal what we choose as long as have one standard for routes that cross Toronto's boundaries. I am sure somewhere, there's an engineer with a long spreadsheet who's working out the costs to see if it's worthwhile to have the standards cohabitate or to impose a new one. It'd be good to see at least some Metrolinx guidance on this issue.

 

[toraerach]

The impact on cross-boundary travel would be minimal since none of today's streetcar routes come anywhere close to crossing the 416-905 divide.

The 501 and 508 come awfully close to Mississauga at Long Branch.

 

[kEiThZ]

The 501 and 508 come awfully close to Mississauga at Long Branch.

If we are talking gauges, WWLRT, Jane, Don Mills and Eglinton are far more relevant to the discussion. When the WWLRT is up and running, that's the one that'll probably be crossing over. It's highly unlikely that we'll run streetcars from across Mississauga and into Toronto.

 

[doady]

If we are talking gauges, WWLRT, Jane, Don Mills and Eglinton are far more relevant to the discussion. When the WWLRT is up and running, that's the one that'll probably be crossing over. It's highly unlikely that we'll run streetcars from across Mississauga and into Toronto.

Why is it so unlikely that Lakeshore will get streetcars?

 

[kEiThZ]

Why is it so unlikely that Lakeshore will get streetcars?

..... because Lakeshore will have Transit City LRT that replaces the streetcar routes currently on it..... There will be no streetcar routes to run out to 'sauga if WWLRT is built as planned: on Lakeshore.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why is it so unlikely that Lakeshore will get streetcars?

From Transit Toronto:

The Town of Port Credit was an old port established late in the 19th century, some distance from the City of Toronto. By the turn of the century, rails from the Toronto & Mimico railway arrived, connecting the town to the villages of Long Branch, New Toronto and Mimico.

When the Toronto Transportation Commission bought out the line in the mid 20s and converted the section east of Long Branch to city standards, the radial service between Long Branch and Port Credit remained, shuttling passengers back and forth until February 10th, 1935, when the tracks were abandoned due to the widening of Lake Shore Road.​

From Transit Toronto:

The only major change to Long Branch occurred in 1942, when the TTC extended streetcar tracks past the loop and along private right-of-way a third of a mile into what is now Mississauga. For three years, Small Arms Loop was the City’s westernmost streetcar loop, serving a munitions factory supporting Canada’s war effort. Little or no photographic record exists of Small Arms Loop, as photographing a facility such as a municions factory was definitely discouraged during the war. Almost immediately following the cessation of hostilities, Small Arms Loop lost its usefulness and the Long Branch streetcar line pulled back to its Long Branch terminus. There it has remained to this day.​

So TTC gauged track did go into what is now Mississauga during World War II.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

From Transit Toronto:

Little or no photographic record exists of Small Arms Loop, as photographing a facility such as a munitions factory was definitely discouraged during the war.​

loose lips sink ships?

 

[Voltz]

..... because Lakeshore will have Transit City LRT that replaces the streetcar routes currently on it..... There will be no streetcar routes to run out to 'sauga if WWLRT is built as planned: on Lakeshore.

The WWLRT will be more part of the downtown streetcar network than the TC network, it is planned to use the single ended cars and the downtown car house. There may not be just 'WWLRT' route streetcars on the tracks.

 

[toraerach]

If we are talking gauges, WWLRT, Jane, Don Mills and Eglinton are far more relevant to the discussion. When the WWLRT is up and running, that's the one that'll probably be crossing over. It's highly unlikely that we'll run streetcars from across Mississauga and into Toronto.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought the WWLRT was going to use the same fleet as the legacy system. Even if they - for some reason - use standard gauge for the rest of the TC network, WWLRT will not connect to it at all (unless Jane gets extended southwards). It will connect to many points on the TTC gauge legacy network though. It wouldn't make any sense to build WWLRT as standard gauge.

For the time being, the legacy network (+WWLRT) will remain separate from the TC network. But in the future there are many places where connections can be made. For example, a connection between the Jane and St. Clair routes, or a connection between the track on Lakeshore and a hypothetical Kipling LRT. Of course, they can't use the TC cars to serve the legacy network or vice versa, but there may be certain segments of the network where both types of vehicles could use the same track. Even if it's just for a few metres, it is far easier to make a segment of track able to carry both types of cars than to build and maintain two tracks.

I think the TTC should stick to TTC gauge across the entire city, and the surrounding cities should adopt the same gauge (Mississauga, for example). With Hamilton, I suppose it doesn't really matter, though I would rather see their LRT with TTC guage. Again, we don't know what the future will bring. Outside of the GTAH, let each region pick its own gauge.

 

[MisterF]

I think you misread my posts. I stated several times that I support a standard that would facilitate travel across municipal boundaries. That means the Jane LRT should be able to cross Steeles without a break of gauge.

As to the likelihood of the 905 municipalities choosing different gauges, we'll see in a year or two when Hurontario and Hamiliton's plans are further along. But I can't see them acquiescing to the TTCs standards without some pressure from Metrolinx to begin with. It's more likely that Mississauga would agree to use TTC gauge. But can you realistically see Hamilton agreeing to the same? The benefits may be marginal but there are costs associated with having non-standard requirements. I would figure that most of the municipalities in this region will prefer to avoid those costs, even if they are marginal.

When it comes to TC and the current streetcar network, I guess it depends on how you see the growth of the current network. TC will have separate carhouses and a complete network. There's no TC line that's isolated and has to rely on the current streetcar network. If the TTC really wanted to, they could effectively end the growth of the current streetcar network and mandate that all the TC lines and new streetcar lines in the suburbs (which are more likely to interact with the TC network) use standard gauge. The impact on cross-boundary travel would be minimal since none of today's streetcar routes come anywhere close to crossing the 416-905 divide.

Ultimately, it's not that big a deal what we choose as long as have one standard for routes that cross Toronto's boundaries. I am sure somewhere, there's an engineer with a long spreadsheet who's working out the costs to see if it's worthwhile to have the standards cohabitate or to impose a new one. It'd be good to see at least some Metrolinx guidance on this issue.

You’re creating a false dichotomy here that depends on York and Peel choosing standard gauge. Why is it so unlikely that they’d use TTC gauge? They know that TTC lines will cross into their regions, and in the case of Mississauga there’s one right on their doorstep. It would make no sense for them to use a different gauge and cut themselves off from the city's network.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that Jane crossing Steeles is more important than Jane connecting with St. Clair. Why would the TTC connect Jane and St. Clair and make them incompatible with each other? Why is travel across an arbitrary municipal boundary more important than connecting with the existing system? TC won’t be separate from the existing network the way that you think. There’s already one proposed connection, three if you count the waterfront line. Several more are possible – I can think of half a dozen of the top of my head.

And finally, do you have any evidence that using TTC gauge would cost more? The fact that other cities have bought so many TTC streetcars without any problems suggests that it’s a non-issue. These costs, which are marginal if they even exist, would be more than made up for by having an interconnected system with a single gauge across the region.

 

[kEiThZ]

You’re creating a false dichotomy here that depends on York and Peel choosing standard gauge. Why is it so unlikely that they’d use TTC gauge? They know that TTC lines will cross into their regions, and in the case of Mississauga there’s one right on their doorstep. It would make no sense for them to use a different gauge and cut themselves off from the city's network.

I never said they would. Again, I said the bordering regions should choose the same gauge as Transit City to facilitate cross-boundary travel.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that Jane crossing Steeles is more important than Jane connecting with St. Clair.

From a regional perspective Jane crossing Steeles is more important particularly if doing so means that it will be connecting with a Hwy 7 LRT eventually.

Why would the TTC connect Jane and St. Clair and make them incompatible with each other?

Correct me if I am wrong but I understood that there are some challenges to running TC LRT on Jane. If not, I stand corrected. However, Jane aside, the TC lines will be incompatible with a good chunk of the TTCs legacy streetcar network. The TTC has not shown any inclination that it will be expanding that network. It's put all its energy on Transit City.

Why is travel across an arbitrary municipal boundary more important than connecting with the existing system? TC won’t be separate from the existing network the way that you think. There’s already one proposed connection, three if you count the waterfront line. Several more are possible – I can think of half a dozen of the top of my head.

Just because there are connections does not mean that the TTC will be interlining services. I have been curious on this point for a while and have emailed several councillors, Metrolinx and TTC staff. They have all said there's no intention to run LRT on St. Clair.

And finally, do you have any evidence that using TTC gauge would cost more?

I am not an expert on rail technology. However, as an engineer, I have never come across a non-standard requirement that did not add costs to a project. I can't imagine that employing the TTC gauge would be that much different.

The fact that other cities have bought so many TTC streetcars without any problems suggests that it’s a non-issue.

Unless we see the contracts we wouldn't know. We do know that resources were consumed changing gauges. What we don't know is if that impacted the sale prices of TTC vehicles. I would suspect that they did.

These costs, which are marginal if they even exist, would be more than made up for by having an interconnected system with a single gauge across the region.

On this point I agree with you. Like I said, I agree with a common regional standard. Where I disagree, is that it would necessarily have to be the TTC gauge. It comes to down to costs for the TTC vs. new LRT systems being set up. Making the TTC gauge the standard would impose costs (however marginal) on every transit system building a LRT line across the GTHA simply to build in the potential that these lines could access the TTC legacy streetcar system. We agree that they need to be able to access the Transit City corridors. However, I disagree that Missisauga needs its Hurontario LRT to be able to run on Queen St. any time soon.

 

[MisterF]

From a regional perspective Jane crossing Steeles is more important particularly if doing so means that it will be connecting with a Hwy 7 LRT eventually.

What metric are you using to determine that? Projected ridership? IMO, a St. Clair streetcar going to Jane Station or north on Jane to Eglinton could be just as regionally important as one going to Highway 7.

Correct me if I am wrong but I understood that there are some challenges to running TC LRT on Jane. If not, I stand corrected. However, Jane aside, the TC lines will be incompatible with a good chunk of the TTCs legacy streetcar network. The TTC has not shown any inclination that it will be expanding that network. It's put all its energy on Transit City.

How do you know they will be incompatible? What if the TC vehicles are identical to the new downtown vehicles, except length and being double ended? If so they will be largely compatible. Even if not, the TTC could easily enough order vehicles that can use both networks if the need arises.

Just because there are connections does not mean that the TTC will be interlining services. I have been curious on this point for a while and have emailed several councillors, Metrolinx and TTC staff. They have all said there's no intention to run LRT on St. Clair.

Think longer term. Just because there are no immediate plans to interline services that doesn't mean that it will never happen. LRT on St. Clair could easily happen in the future, long after the current crop of staff and councillors are gone.

I am not an expert on rail technology. However, as an engineer, I have never come across a non-standard requirement that did not add costs to a project. I can't imagine that employing the TTC gauge would be that much different.

Economies of scale. Several hundred LRT vehicles using the TTC gauge means the increased cost is slim to none. Any extra cost of brand new cars having TTC gauge bogeys would undoubtedly be less than the cost of switching gauges, which has been done repeatedly when other cities adopt Toronto's streetcars.

On this point I agree with you. Like I said, I agree with a common regional standard. Where I disagree, is that it would necessarily have to be the TTC gauge. It comes to down to costs for the TTC vs. new LRT systems being set up. Making the TTC gauge the standard would impose costs (however marginal) on every transit system building a LRT line across the GTHA simply to build in the potential that these lines could access the TTC legacy streetcar system. We agree that they need to be able to access the Transit City corridors. However, I disagree that Missisauga needs its Hurontario LRT to be able to run on Queen St. any time soon.

You say you want a common regional standard but not necessarily the TTC gauge. If we adopt something other than the TTC gauge, then by definition we won't have a common regional standard. Having two gauges will impose major costs on transit service and flexibility in the future.

Your example of the Hurontario LRT sounds as ridiculous as you meant it to. But what about an LRT going from Port Credit to south Etobicoke? Or you could have the Don Mills LRT extending south to the Carleton and Queen lines. Or west to interline with the King and Dundas lines at Broadview. The Jane line will connect with St. Clair (that much is clear) and could extend to the waterfront line. The 503 could continue up Kingston Rd to Eglinton. Some of these could be major connections, and they'd be impossible if we adopt a different gauge. Why close the door on the possibility?

 

[Kiwi]

Figured you'd be interested....

Hamilton's Rapid Transit Office will go ahead with standard track gauge (1.435 m). Other specifications:

Vehicle Weight (Empty, average) 41 000 kg
Vehicle Weight (Full, average) 63 000 kg
Single Vehicle Height (may vary according to pantograph height) 3.9 m
Single Vehicle Length (average) (constrained by intersection spacing) 28 m
Single Vehicle Width 2.65 m
Horizontal Vehicle Clearance (total) 1.0 m
Vertical Vehicle Clearance (minimum) 4 m
Ballast/Track Bed Depth (average) 0.74 m
Passengers (seated/standing, average) 60/130

It'll either be Bombardier Flexity Outlook or Siemens Combino Plus.

Phase 3 - Rapid Transit Feasibility Study
http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/02FB9642-6406-45B3-8699-3417399ADC9C/0/Apr20PW09034.pdf

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Exactly as I predicted. I have a feeling we'll see TC lines adopt standard gauge as well. We'll know in a few months when the announcement comes.