Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[urbanfan89]

What? It's simply not possible to widen the radius of the streetcar tracks without demolishing entire buildings in the downtown core. There's also no need to abolish loops, because most streetcar systems in Germany/Austria are still thriving with single-ended vehicles.

Transit City vehicles can already run on the legacy network, but not optimally.

 

[MisterF]

The Transit City network will be built to TTC gauge. Note that once the carbody structure, bogies, articulations etc. of the legacy system vehicles are proven through design, Finite Element Analyses, testing and validation, there will be savings in “proven†equipment and configuration for the TC vehicles, as well as savings through common tooling, manufacturing and quality control processes, if negotiation with the base vehicle carbuilder is successful.

I'd interpret this to mean that the Transit City and downtown vehicles will have common bogies, structure, articulations, etc., which means that both models will be able to handle the same curves and grades. Somebody feel free to clarify if I'm reading that wrong.

 

[EnviroTO]

The Transit City vehicles may not have as many powered wheels to save on cost which would make them incapable of handling some of the steeper grades on the legacy network.

 

[MisterF]

Thanks Enviro. So chances are they'll be able to handle the same curves but not necessarily the same grades.

 

[Paleo]

LRT or not I don't think there will be much appetite for riders on Jane to take a very long ride into the core on a surface route when they could just use a short eastbound bus ride and the Spadina subway which takes you into core in probably less time even factoring in a transfer.

Thanks Enviro. So chances are they'll be able to handle the same curves but not necessarily the same grades.

If the TC fleet is truly going to be off the shelf standard, that's probably not likely. Bombardier had to chop off a piece of the front end of the new legacy design and modify several other characteristics to get them to (theoretically) work on the legacy network. The TC fleet will probably omit these for cost savings.

 

[MisterF]

If the TC fleet is truly going to be off the shelf standard, that's probably not likely. Bombardier had to chop off a piece of the front end of the new legacy design and modify several other characteristics to get them to (theoretically) work on the legacy network. The TC fleet will probably omit these for cost savings.

The TC fleet won't be truly off the shelf. I'll quote this again:

The Transit City network will be built to TTC gauge. Note that once the carbody structure, bogies, articulations etc. of the legacy system vehicles are proven through design, Finite Element Analyses, testing and validation, there will be savings in “proven†equipment and configuration for the TC vehicles, as well as savings through common tooling, manufacturing and quality control processes, if negotiation with the base vehicle carbuilder is successful.

The factory will already be set up to build legacy streetcars, so cost savings would come from using the same setup (common tooling, manufacturing, QC, etc.) for the TC streetcars. Essentially the legacy setup would be what's considered "off the shelf" for Toronto's purposes.

 

[nfitz]

Now we have hard numbers, so we should be able to judge if this "legacy setup" really costs $$. Bombardier bid about CAN$5 million (US$4.2 million, €3.2million) for a 30-metre Bombardier Flexity unit.

How does this compare to other recent awards in other countries with "off-the-shelf" equipment?

 

[kettal]

It is more expensive. But it's not due to the track gauge.

 

[nfitz]

It is more expensive. But it's not due to the track gauge.

Why do you say it's more expensive? The pricing looks very similiar to other recent orders.

Fall 2008 order for 28m-long low-floor vehicles built in Germany at €3.1 million each (compared to our slightly longer, slightly more recent units at €3.2 million).

 

[EnviroTO]

There is no "shelf" containing Canadian made low-floor LRTs. Off the shelf would mean "made elsewhere". The Thunder Bay plant and its suppliers will be tooled to make the streetcar replacement order of low-floor LRTs. The off-the-shelf model from Thunder Bay will become the model they are already tooled to make. There will be savings from removing components such as motors, some which will be added back on by adding a second cab. Once the streetcar replacement goes through the only Canadian made low-floor LRT models on the shelf will be various lengths of the model used by the TTC with options removed or added.

If other jurisdictions in Canada choose the cheapest model "off-the-shelf" from Bombardier they will be getting a variant of the model used by the TTC.