Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[ShonTron]

See, this is why I selected option number 3. The suburban LRT lines (those operated by the TTC and Peel and York) make sense as TTC-gauge. The Don Mills TC line may enter Markham and connect with an eventual York LRT system once they tire of VIVA II. Hurontario/Dundas may or may not ever connect to the TTC's system, though considering that Dundas will likely terminate at Kipling Subway and Hurontario will never enter Toronto, it could be standard gauge, but there's a good case for it to conform in case they ever decide to connect with the Eglinton LRT.

Hamilton's LRT will likely never leave its boundaries, will never go west of Dundas, north of Hamilton Harbour, or east of Fiesta Mall (at most). There's a long distance between Trafalgar Road (the most likely place a Dundas LRT would terminate) and Dundas. I can't see a Hamilton LRT making its way along York Blvd through the cemetaries and Plains Road, or across Hamilton Beach. Frequent GO service and local buses, like there are now, can do the job. Hamilton can do what it likes.

Unless there are serious proposals to bring back the idea of radial or interuban railways (talk about back to the future!), Hamilton, Toronto/York/Peel and Waterloo Regions will never meet with each other. And certainly not Ottawa. For them, connecting with the TTC should not be a concern. And time and again, the default is standard gauge.

Heavy rail is the solution for connecting the far-flung places together. LRT is for local service.

 

[nfitz]

Hurontario/Dundas may or may not ever connect to the TTC's system, though considering that Dundas will likely terminate at Kipling Subway and Hurontario will never enter Toronto, it could be standard gauge, but there's a good case for it to conform in case they ever decide to connect with the Eglinton LRT.

Given there's been talk at times (talk ... not action) of extending the St. Clair LRT down Dundas to Kipling, and of a Kipling LRT, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that track on Dundas to Kipling might well intersect TTC lines. I'd also think that potentially there may be something down the Queensway one day, or Lakeshore into Mississauga to Port Credit (Hurontario).

 

[ShonTron]

Problem though is that St. Clair is a streetcar, not 'LRT' - so it will use the single-end downtown fleet, complete with ancient single-point switches, loops. We keep being told how TC will not be like slow, lumbering St. Clair milk-runs.

 

[nfitz]

Problem though is that St. Clair is a streetcar, not 'LRT' - so it will use the single-end downtown fleet, complete with ancient single-point switches, loops.

I see no technical reason why double-ended vehicles can't be used on any of the existing routes. Streetcars are LRT.

We keep being told how TC will not be like slow, lumbering St. Clair milk-runs.

And you believe that?

 

[kEiThZ]

The most important thing is to have a single standard to facilitate inter-city routes. That being said, given that much of TC will not be compatible with most of the existing streetcar network anyway (turn radii, grades, etc.) perhaps we should consider standard gauge as the LRT standard for TC and leave the current streetcar network on TTC gauge. This way the TTC gauge would never really grow beyond the 416 but the region would benefit from adopting the same standards as the rest of the world.

 

[CDL.TO]

I see no technical reason why double-ended vehicles can't be used on any of the existing routes. Streetcars are LRT.

There could potentially be two things preventing this from happening. The single-point/double-point switches issue, and the matter of turning radius. Plus the deal of pantographs and trolley poles, but that one is more easily rectified.

 

[nfitz]

There could potentially be two things preventing this from happening. The single-point/double-point switches issue, and the matter of turning radius.

I don't know enough to comment on the switches issues ... but I don't see whether or not there is a cab on both ends or not changes anything. As for turning radius, my understanding is that they intend to order pretty much the same unit that they are ordering for the existing system - but with the double end.

Plus the deal of pantographs and trolley poles, but that one is more easily rectified.

Again, I don't see an issue, given that they will already be using pantographs on all the existing lines by the time the first TC line starts.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Because going with the TTC gauge in the GTA wouldn't be any more expensive and matches the existing light rail system. Rail gauges don't go obsolete like HD-DVD. Why create a headache and go with two different gauges for light rail in a single city and have a system that's incompatible with itself?

Why not when it is all said and done, say 20-30 years from now the existing streetcar system most likely will only account for a small percentage of the total existing LRT kilometers in Toronto.

The question we should be asking now that we know that the standard gauge is the most universal is, who else other than Ontario is using the TTC gauge and decide from there.

 

[MisterF]

Why not when it is all said and done, say 20-30 years from now the existing streetcar system most likely will only account for a small percentage of the total existing LRT kilometers in Toronto.

The question we should be asking now that we know that the standard gauge is the most universal is, who else other than Ontario is using the TTC gauge and decide from there.

The question I'm asking is what advantages would the universal gauge have over TTC gauge? After reading this whole thread I can't think of any. What matters is local context - who else other than Ontario uses the TTC gauge is irrelevant.

Incompatibility with the existing system would be a huge drawback. I'm not convinced that the Transit City lines and the downtown lines will be incompatible at all. I'd say it's very likely that all the new vehicles will share the same basic design and capabilities. It only makes sense to standardize them as much as possible. So it's quite possible that the Transit City LRTs will be able to handle downtown curves and grades, and that downtown streetcars will be able to use Transit City lines if a few loops are built. Of course, there's nothing preventing the TTC from ordering double-ended streetcars for downtown routes in the future as well. Who knows what decisions they'll make decades from now? And that's the point - building new lines to the same gauge ensures long term flexibility for things we might not even consider right now.

The most important thing is to have a single standard to facilitate inter-city routes. That being said, given that much of TC will not be compatible with most of the existing streetcar network anyway (turn radii, grades, etc.) perhaps we should consider standard gauge as the LRT standard for TC and leave the current streetcar network on TTC gauge. This way the TTC gauge would never really grow beyond the 416 but the region would benefit from adopting the same standards as the rest of the world.

Intercity routes? You might want to expand on that point because I really don't see what local streetcar lines have to do with intercity routes.

There really are no advantages to having the same gauge as the rest of the world. The fact that TTC streetcars have been adapted to other cities so easily shows that the width of the bogies is a minor detail.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Incompatibility with the existing system would be a huge drawback. I'm not convinced that the Transit City lines and the downtown lines will be incompatible at all. I'd say it's very likely that all the new vehicles will share the same basic design and capabilities. It only makes sense to standardize them as much as possible. So it's quite possible that the Transit City LRTs will be able to handle downtown curves and grades, and that downtown streetcars will be able to use Transit City lines if a few loops are built. Of course, there's nothing preventing the TTC from ordering double-ended streetcars for downtown routes in the future as well. Who knows what decisions they'll make decades from now? And that's the point - building new lines to the same gauge ensures long term flexibility for things we might not even consider right now.

exactly. lets keep all the track the same gauge.

 

[kEiThZ]

Intercity routes? You might want to expand on that point because I really don't see what local streetcar lines have to do with intercity routes.

I think it's obvious what I meant in the context of a discussion on LRT: inter-muncipality routes. ie Don Mills or Jane for example going north and connecting to a future Viva LRT or the Eglinton LRT connecting with the Hurontario LRT.

There really are no advantages to having the same gauge as the rest of the world. The fact that TTC streetcars have been adapted to other cities so easily shows that the width of the bogies is a minor detail.

I have never said that a common standard is needed, just a common standard where routes cross boundaries. If it's quite likely that the rest of the GTHA is going to adopt standard gauge, I see no harm in the TTC doing so for the Transit City routes. TC is really an all new network being overlayed on the city. It will have its own carhouses and other support systems. It does not need to rely on the rest of the TTC's streetcar network at all.

In the end, I will concede that the advantages are marginal given that it is a minor quibble...and really more a point of discussion in a thread on an internet forum.

 

[Dan416]

In the end it will be the TTC's decision, and my guess will be that they will just use their own standard.

 

[Automation Gallery]

I see no harm in the TTC doing so for the Transit City routes. TC is really an all new network being overlayed on the city. It will have its own carhouses and other support systems. It does not need to rely on the rest of the TTC's streetcar network at all.

In the end, I will concede that the advantages are marginal given that it is a minor quibble...and really more a point of discussion in a thread on an internet forum.

Well said/KEithZ

 

[MisterF]

I think it's obvious what I meant in the context of a discussion on LRT: inter-muncipality routes. ie Don Mills or Jane for example going north and connecting to a future Viva LRT or the Eglinton LRT connecting with the Hurontario LRT.



I have never said that a common standard is needed, just a common standard where routes cross boundaries. If it's quite likely that the rest of the GTHA is going to adopt standard gauge, I see no harm in the TTC doing so for the Transit City routes. TC is really an all new network being overlayed on the city. It will have its own carhouses and other support systems. It does not need to rely on the rest of the TTC's streetcar network at all.

In the end, I will concede that the advantages are marginal given that it is a minor quibble...and really more a point of discussion in a thread on an internet forum.

Why do you say that it's quite likely that the rest of the GTHA will adopt standard gauge? It would be very shortsighted on YRT's part to adopt a gauge that's incompatible with Toronto. Besides, Metrolinx would likely ensure that there's a standard GTA-wide LRT gauge. Even if YRT has standard gauge, for the TTC it would be more important for the Jane line (to use your example) to connect with current lines like St. Clair than with a hypothetical Highway 7 LRT that might get built sometime in the future. That connection is even shows on the Transit City map.

I think you’re overestimating how separate the TC lines would be from the existing network. There are lots of opportunities for connections, especially when you think 20, 50, or 100 years from now. Routes and vehicles change, the track gauge is there for good. Interconnectivity within the same region is far more important than being consistent with a world standard that, for all intents and purposes, is irrelevant to Toronto. You said yourself that the benefits of using a different gauge would be marginal. But it’s still not clear what even those marginal benefits might be.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

you know what'd be funny? if they built the toronto section of the spadina extension with 1495mm (ttc gauge) and the vaughan section with 1435mm (standard gauge).