SmartTrack (Proposed)

[ssiguy2]

Running GO or RER may indeed be more expensive than TTC bus but it is also a vastly superior use of funds and rolling stock.

Many of the packed buses on route to the nearest subway station roll right by a GO station where few get off. If GO was an option most of those people would get off at GO so maybe half of all those buses could short turn back providing increased frequency at no extra cost.

You also have to take into account the number of potential riders the TTC is losing due to people hating to take it. Many would ride the TTC to work if they weren't packed in like sardines hyperventilating for an hour and if GO/RER were an option it would help alleviate the over crowding on many of the subway, bus, and streetcar routes.

 

[nfitz]

In contrast, I don't see many people using GO from Kipling to Union in preference to the Subway. l

I do this from time to time, to get to Kipling in PM rush - normally on the way to get the Airport rocket. There always seems to be a good stream of people walking with me from the GO Platform to the subway station.

And the onetime I tried this, I just missed the GO train on the Union platform; with the next GO Train 35 minutes away, I figured I might as well take the subway. However, while the subway train was (as always) sitting between Islington and Kipling, the following GO Train went past us. So if you are already on the GO platform at Union, the GO Train can be over 35 minutes faster than the subway in rush hour to get to Kipling!

 

[LNahid2000]

Running GO or RER may indeed be more expensive than TTC bus but it is also a vastly superior use of funds and rolling stock.

Many of the packed buses on route to the nearest subway station roll right by a GO station where few get off. If GO was an option most of those people would get off at GO so maybe half of all those buses could short turn back providing increased frequency at no extra cost.

You also have to take into account the number of potential riders the TTC is losing due to people hating to take it. Many would ride the TTC to work if they weren't packed in like sardines hyperventilating for an hour and if GO/RER were an option it would help alleviate the over crowding on many of the subway, bus, and streetcar routes.

The problem here isn't the difference in operating costs between different technologies. The problem is that the TTC and GO are both only looking after their own interests. If they actually worked together, they would be able to find efficiencies like lower operating costs to transport people on RER than on a bus. But I don't have much hope for them working together.

 

[muller877]

Whether you call it fare integration or standard fare or whatever doesn't matter to the transit riders. All they want to know is if I am taking ST from Malvern to Union or Humber College to Union, will it cost me any more money.

RER and GO service increases will make little difference for Torontonians if the fares remain as expensive as they are.

If RER offered 5 minute frequency with more stations {especially in inner city} then ST isn't even needed but only if it doesn't cost anymore than it does with just getting a TTC ticket. Whether that is fare zone based, distance based , or the system they have now is irrelevant as long as it doesn't cost them any more money to take RER to get to their destination than it would if they were to take the TTC alone.

So people can have global context, Malvern to Union is about 30 km. In the UK that is the same distance from the ring road (M25) to Waterloo station. One example on the Metropolitan line is Croxley which is in Zone 7. Using the Oyster card its £5.60 during peak and £4.00 off-peak. £7.00 cash fare.
From Weybridge to Waterloo (about the same distance but via rail) it costs £8.00

And then the "utopia" of Berlin...E3.00 for a 2 zone ride that gets you out 15 km. A 3 zone ride is E3.30 and gets you about 35km out of the downtown core (similar to the urban boundaries of Toronto). The cheaper ticket only goes for E2.70. Converting to C$...that's $4.30 for a short ride and $5.25 for a longer ride. (there is also a 3 station ticket for cheaper)

I predict that it will cost you the same...but over the next 5 years before it is implemented we will see an increase in TTC fares and no change in GO Transit fares (for short distances) so they will converge. But from Malvern to Union will cost you $5+ for both options.

 

[robmausser]

I dont understand whats so complicated about using a fare zone system with PRESTO.

It should be, stay within Toronto City borders, pay one fare. Stay within York Region, Mississauga etc, it should be one fare. Regardless of what mode of transportation you take. Cross over into another zone, and you pay more.

However I think the issue is getting every transit provider to agree to this. In Quebec they are solving this by having everything owned by one agency, like Metrolinx (AMT). Also people who live on the borders of zones will complain about crossing over into a zone thats close by and will cost them extra, but I mean, we have to draw the line somewhere.

This would mean taking GO RER within Toronto borders and transfering to a subway, streetcar, bus, in Toronto borders would be one fare. It wouldnt be a TTC fare per say, it will just be one fare.

 

[gweed123]

However I think the issue is getting every transit provider to agree to this. In Quebec they are solving this by having everything owned by one agency, like Metrolinx (AMT). Also people who live on the borders of zones will complain about crossing over into a zone thats close by and will cost them extra, but I mean, we have to draw the line somewhere.

That border issue can be solved by having the zones overlap by 1 or 2 km. That way, someone in that "buffer zone" is technically in both zones, so a short 2km trip won't cross a zone boundary.

 

[bobbob911]

The transfer during the morning rush at Kipling is pretty much unidirectional - from GO to subway. There is little rationale to use GO unless your destination is within walkable distance to Union - and worse, the lack of frequent service imposes time constraints on your schedule. Why would anyone chose that when you are at a subway terminus with pretty much guaranteed seating, frequent service and competitive travel time?

AoD

Right now with the double fare, anyone who's destination is not walking distance to Union transfers to TTC. With an integrated fare, you might see most people stay on GO if their destination is anywhere south of bloor, and transfer at Union to go northbound (same number of transfers, possibly faster with the GO segment, no transfer at St George or Y/B where you never get a seat and have to wait multiple trains sometimes, and the aforementioned comfort that GO trains give you)

 

[bobbob911]

I dont understand whats so complicated about using a fare zone system with PRESTO.

There are almost no technical challenges. The challenges are political - deciding where those zones are, how much they cost, assessing the relative revenue impact, etc etc.

 

[Palma]

I guess the consultants who did the report must be lying.

cause I guess it would not be the first time reports show what people want them to show. aka Sheppard, etc

 

[TheTigerMaster]

cause I guess it would not be the first time reports show what people want them to show. aka Sheppard, etc

Really? This is a very serious allegation you're making. I would be more careful about brining their professionalism and integrity into question.

 

[Palma]

My guess, and I haven't read the report yet, is that the LRT will have more local stops, therefore attracting more riders. That is, the main draw of the line is local and not regional, which makes heavy rail pointless.

That makes sense. I did not think of it that way

 

[Palma]

Really? This is a very serious allegation you're making. I would be more careful about brining their professionalism and integrity into question.

you must have an issue. All the posts that are put up here questioning Ford, Tory, Miller, etc and the things that have been said yet I say something like that and its offensive. Are you one of the consultants? You are actually trying to tell me you that reports are not done all the time with numbers changing. One report shows Sheppard with low ridership, does not need subway. Next report, complete reversal. Same with Scarborough. Should we not be questioning those reports either?

 

[Cobra]

Am I the only one thinking: damn it, if Tory can be reasonable about SmartTrack and revert back to LRT on Eglinton W, why can't he be reasonable about the Scarborough situation and revert back to LRT?

Because politically, the province already said subway with only 2 options
a) Kennedy to Sheppard-McCowan (with the city paying its share)
b)Kennedy to STC (if the city won't pay its share or/and if council rejects the plan)

No plan C. It's subway

 

[Cobra]

So the heavy rail rail options for Eglinton not only cost a magnitude more than an LRT but also has less ridership...What a fail

Oh Olivia...how right were you...

 

[Cobra]

It's an 8 km spur that could cost nearly $8 Billion. That's nearly $1 Billion/km, isn't it? I've never seen something in Toronto cost that much. Typical subways are less than half that cost

That should bring back the DRL (hopefully LONG plan) back as the front runner