TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It's an 8 km spur that could cost nearly $8 Billion. That's nearly $1 Billion/km, isn't it? I've never seen something in Toronto cost that much. Typical subways are less than half that cost
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SmartTrack (Proposed)
- Thread starter aquateam
- Start date
It's an 8 km spur that could cost nearly $8 Billion. That's nearly $1 Billion/km, isn't it? I've never seen something in Toronto cost that much. Typical subways are less than half that cost
Tuscani01
Senior Member
The crazy thing to think about is that New York's Second Avenue line is costing $1.7 Billion/km, and that's under a dense and aging city. $1 billion/km out in Toronto's suburbs would be completely ridiculous.
Really makes me question the accuracy of that cost estimate for the Western spur of Smart Track.
Underneath a corridor that is largely vacant and could be done using cut and cover, no less.
crs1026
Superstar
It's the cost versus added benefit, and not affordability per se, that drives this, I suspect.
I know plenty of people who work at College/University and their commute involves both TTC and GO, so they pay both fares. Thanks to fare integration, they may even use Presto to ride transit at the outer end of their trip, for a very low added fare. These folks mostly live in the 905 and their real decision is whether to use transit (accepting its overall cost) or drive downtown. People will pay a substantial amount to not have to get on our expressways.
In contrast, I don't see many people using GO from Kipling to Union in preference to the Subway. Plenty of people can afford both fares, but the time saved doesn't strike them as justifying the expense ....especially since Milton GO trains are getting as crowded as the Subway.
Curiously, the number using GO at Bloor on the Weston line are larger. I suspect these folks are walking at both ends, hence not paying a TTC fare - whereas walking to Kipling isn't an option for many out that way.
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
The northern alignment does have more new riders in both 2031 and 2041, and more total ridership in 2041.
Where are you getting $8 billion for 8 km from? The Eglinton alignments range from $2.7 billion to $5.8 billion for the 9 km from Mount Dennis to Renforth Gateway (probably closer to 10 km if you include the proposed curves at Mount Dennis and tail tracks). Even the most expensive is under $650 million per kilometre, and the cheapest is $300 million per kilometre. This shouldn't surprise anyone.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Exactly.
Metrolinx and TTC are there to run the transit systems but that doesn't give them the right to dictate how you use the system.
If it's A to B on transit, it's none of their business how you decide to get there. Whether based on zones, distance, or regional doesn't matter..............the cost of getting there shouldn't be at all effected by the choice of which technology to use.
Whether you decide to get to your destination on standard rail gauge, third rail, LRT tracks, legacy tracks, LIM rail or just good old fashioned pavement shouldn't make any difference.
Seriously. Charging more to ride standard rail GO and slightly less for RER tracks than third rail is just as stupid as charging more for LIM tracks and LRT tracks, that legacy streetcar tracks. When you get right down to the basics that is how stupid the fare structure is and will become.
Metrolinx & the TTC should set the fares for getting from A to B but leave the choice of how they get there to the riders themselves.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
From Oliver Moore:
Final estimates for W. spur have come in even higher than I was told in Nov. Range from $3.6B to $7.7B. The latter for Eglinton. #topoli
Admittedly, I haven't taken a look at the Western Spur report myself, so I'm just taking his word for it.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I'm curious about how much it costs to move each passenger on GO. If there's a big disparity between GO and TTC, that's a legitimate reason not to have fare parity amongst the two platforms.
salsa
Senior Member
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I believe the diameter of the tunnel can have a substantial effect on cost. It would be a big factor bere, because of bi-level EMU
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Not necessarily - especially when there are operating cost, capacity and demand differences. Also there is the issue of the willingness of riders to trade time with cost (as they also do across mode).
The question to me isn't that they have no business in shaping how you choose to get from point A to B, but whether there are ways to jig the system to benefit as many as possible in terms of travel cost and time.
AoD
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nfitz
Superstar
There's a note that the $2.7 to $5.8 billion cost doesn't include $1 to $2 billion for modifications to the Georgetown Sub between Union and St. Clair plus rollling stock, maintenance, storage, etc.... so perhaps that's where the $7.7 billion came from ... but that's not the Eglinton cost, which at most would only be a fraction of that $1 to $2 billion.
bobbob911
Active Member
Yes, absolutely true also. The lack of fare integration and the lack of service integration are, in some ways, mutually re-enforcing.
bobbob911
Active Member
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I can't speak for the specifics of that line. However, I can say that there is always a seat on LSE during rush hour, and personally I would pay the difference for the comfort and quiet, and available cell service, and lack of transfer at Y/B, even if the subway were faster
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I can't speak for the specifics of that line. However, I can say that there is always a seat on LSE during rush hour, and personally I would pay the difference for the comfort and quiet, and available cell service, and lack of transfer at Y/B, even if the subway were faster
The transfer during the morning rush at Kipling is pretty much unidirectional - from GO to subway. There is little rationale to use GO unless your destination is within walkable distance to Union - and worse, the lack of frequent service imposes time constraints on your schedule. Why would anyone chose that when you are at a subway terminus with pretty much guaranteed seating, frequent service and competitive travel time?
AoD