SmartTrack (Proposed)

[Euphoria]

In fact, why not fold GO and all GTA transit systems into a single distance-based fare? That way we can focus on servicing the region, Metrolinx's original mandate. That's likely what we'll end up with.

 

[44 North]

In that case make all Toronto RER TTC (instead of GO), following the same TTC fare structure, even if at some point that means moving to a zones-type fee based on distance traveled, like London's tube.

Yeah, but that's too complicated, weird, and somewhat redundant. I think it's more logical from most standpoints to have all GO corridors remain as one Prov GO system. Though I think naturally GO and RER will be broken down into individual privately-run lines with different types of services and rolling stock. And quite possibly privately-leased or owned lines. There will be premium tier services and economy-class services, and inner 416/905 services and outer 905 services.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Metrolinx has already said that ST will be an incremental upgrade to RER. TTC won't be involved.

 

[Euphoria]

Does that mean a separate GO fare?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The fare has nothing to do with who is operating the line.

 

[Euphoria]

All riders care about is whether they have to pay an additional fare for ST. Us plebs don't care who operates it.

 

[44 North]

All riders care about is whether they have to pay an additional fare for ST. Us plebs don't care who operates it.

I don't think there will be any "additional" fares per se... I'm sure there will be one unified GTHA-wide fare system in place by then. Though I do believe it's inevitable that it'll cost a lot more to ride RER than the TTC. And that for GO/RER you'll have options between cleaner and faster trains/services, and less expensive but grimier privately-run services.

 

[crs1026]

In that case make all Toronto RER TTC (instead of GO), following the same TTC fare structure, even if at some point that means moving to a zones-type fee based on distance traveled, like London's tube.

ST does not have to be part of the TTC to be run within the TTC fare system (which doesn't have to be the same as it is today, either). Rather than asking TTC to develop talent and organizational capability in running CROR-based heavy rail, just leave that to GO, or to a contracted operator (when we talk about GO, we often are actually referring to Bombardier these days anyways).

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

Just now on twitter

 

[salsa]

Just now on twitter

View attachment 64238

Those numbers better be correct. Oliver moore has more.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...re-far-greater-than-expected/article28253223/

 

[Rainforest]

SmartTrack should be abandoned. Tory is looking really foolish trying to rationalize building something that directly competes with three separate rapid transit projects (the DRL, the Scarborough subway extension and the Eglinton Crosstown airport extension) for the same ridership.

???

Eglinton Crosstown airport extension replaces the western leg of SmartTrack, therefore they do not compete. And since they are going to defer SmartTrack north of Kennedy Stn, it does not compete with Scarborough subway.

 

[Rainforest]

I still think ST will be folded into GO's plans.

Largerly it is folded into GO already, technically. But it will not be folded officially.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If SmartTrack is built as Tory described in his campaign is unmodified (25 stations, 55 km, 5 min frequencies) they expect 315,000 riders per day if train comes every 5 minutes, which is fantastic.

But that version is not what city planning is evaluating anymore, due to its high costs. The Metrolinx ridership projections, which is a model of what City Planning is current evaluating, has 12,000 riders with GO fare, and 24,000 riders with TTC fares. Their model includes light rail on Eglinton West, fewer stations and frequencies of 5 to 10 minutes.

So the basic explanation of it is,
SmartTrack, as originally proposed, would have 315,000 riders. This version was apparently scrapped. That's more than half the daily ridership of Line 2.

The ST plan current being evaluated by City Planning would have roughly 24,000 riders according to Metrolinx. This is the same daily ridership as the 41 Keele bus.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the original version, with 315,000 daily riders, was indeed scrapped, that probably means the costs were prohibitive. There's no other reason to scrap a proposal with such high ridership.

IIRC, the western spur alone cost $5 Billion. To bring the rest of RER within Toronto and around the GTBA up to spec to handle that demand and 5 min frequencies and would cost billions more. This would not be small upgrade, so the costs they were looking at were realistically approaching $10 Billion, if not higher.

 

[Rainforest]

^ I can't believe that just the replacement of the heavy-rail Eglinton leg with LRT can cause the ridership to drop from 315,000 to 24,000.

There must be other, very substantial differences between those two models.