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SmartTrack (Proposed)

Eglinton West was always stupid but the premise of Smart Tracks is a good.

It simply is a better use of existing infrastructure. Tory knows the city cannot afford to tunnel everywhere and so created a plan that takes what you've got and makes it a whole lot better. It's the same idea between GO..............you have the corridors, the track, station etc so why not just improve upon it? The difference of course is that Smart Tracks will be useful to Torontonians where GO won't be.

GO is not only expensive but it's premise of being distance based is a joke. Someone going from Bloor to Union as opposed to someone coming in from Burlington pays about 8X as much on a per-km based fare. This is why GO has such incredible lousy ridership numbers in Toronto itself...........it's a 905 service and GO, despite all the huge expansion plans, intends to keep it that way. That in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing but it still doesn't do Torontonians any good.

Essentially Smart Tracks is just the Toronto portion of GO RER but the citizens will take ST where they won't take GO.
 
Semantics aside (SmartTrack/GO RER/ACME Surface Subway Inc./etc for this section of GO network), I'm looking forward to any enhanced 416-optimized high-frequency lower-fare upgraded electrified rail-based public rapid transit that is coming on the Kitchener-Stoufville lines. And other lines too. New stations -- infills, interchange stations, proper fare integration, etc. Very much needed, whatever it is or will be called, and whoever remotely claims to operate it. It's a no-brainer to introduce upgraded 416 public transit service in certain GO corridors.

To the city/Metrolinx -- stop the fighting over semantics and get it done in the most cost-effective and corridor-efficient manner, please.

Ottawa, Waterloo are working on quick "Phase 2" extensions of their transit systems, and even Hamilton could be about to follow suit.
 
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ssiguy2 said:
Eglinton West was always stupid but the premise of Smart Tracks is a good.

It simply is a better use of existing infrastructure. Tory knows the city cannot afford to tunnel everywhere and so created a plan that takes what you've got and makes it a whole lot better. It's the same idea between GO..............you have the corridors, the track, station etc so why not just improve upon it? The difference of course is that Smart Tracks will be useful to Torontonians where GO won't be.

GO is not only expensive but it's premise of being distance based is a joke. Someone going from Bloor to Union as opposed to someone coming in from Burlington pays about 8X as much on a per-km based fare. This is why GO has such incredible lousy ridership numbers in Toronto itself...........it's a 905 service and GO, despite all the huge expansion plans, intends to keep it that way. That in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing but it still doesn't do Torontonians any good.

Essentially Smart Tracks is just the Toronto portion of GO RER but the citizens will take ST where they won't take GO.
Click to expand...

Yes. I am sick and tired of this bi-partisan mentality that people are thinking in black and white with. Tory is bad, thus his whole plan is bad. Mentality of toddlers...

Just because a portion of Smarttrack is a bad idea, does not mean we have to throw the whole plan out.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Eglinton West was always stupid but the premise of Smart Tracks is a good.

It simply is a better use of existing infrastructure. Tory knows the city cannot afford to tunnel everywhere and so created a plan that takes what you've got and makes it a whole lot better. It's the same idea between GO..............you have the corridors, the track, station etc so why not just improve upon it? The difference of course is that Smart Tracks will be useful to Torontonians where GO won't be.

GO is not only expensive but it's premise of being distance based is a joke. Someone going from Bloor to Union as opposed to someone coming in from Burlington pays about 8X as much on a per-km based fare. This is why GO has such incredible lousy ridership numbers in Toronto itself...........it's a 905 service and GO, despite all the huge expansion plans, intends to keep it that way. That in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing but it still doesn't do Torontonians any good.

Essentially Smart Tracks is just the Toronto portion of GO RER but the citizens will take ST where they won't take GO.
Click to expand...

Okay, let's put Eglinton aside. My issue is 'making better use of existing infrastructure' seems subjective. The space has to be available on the existing infrastructure, and the improvements should be substantial enough that it is an efficient use of each dollar. The details are skim and there are lobbyists behind the curtain, just another way that the whole thing is shady. But from what I can gather to date, it fails on both fronts.

If we assume that it runs on the same tracks as GO RER and intermingles with them, there is only enough space to run SmartTrack every 15 minutes. The extra stations may be a benefit, but folks, that is not the "surface subway" that John Tory promised us. If it runs on its own tracks, please show me where there is space and money to do so, particularly between west of Union and Eglinton.

Either way, between Dundas West/Bloor and Sheppard, we have a subway on the books. If we are measuring benefit by how much it will relieve congestion on our subway system (again, a purpose of SmartTrack), Metrolinx has done analysis that shows a subway relief line at least between Sheppard and University will have a substantially bigger impact that enhanced GO RER (aka SmartTrack east of Union) for about the same initial cost estimate. And if we choose to build that subway relief line, we might as well keep going to Dundas West as per the original Metrolinx plan (see above note about space).

So I only see merit in SmartTrack between Bloor and Eglinton on the west side. But that's a short slice of the monster plan that John Tory has proposed, and it's enough that I think justifies throwing the whole plan out.
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
Okay, let's put Eglinton aside. My issue is 'making better use of existing infrastructure' seems subjective. The space has to be available on the existing infrastructure, and the improvements should be substantial enough that it is an efficient use of each dollar. The details are skim and there are lobbyists behind the curtain, just another way that the whole thing is shady. But from what I can gather to date, it fails on both fronts.

If we assume that it runs on the same tracks as GO RER and intermingles with them, there is only enough space to run SmartTrack every 15 minutes. The extra stations may be a benefit, but folks, that is not the "surface subway" that John Tory promised us. If it runs on its own tracks, please show me where there is space and money to do so, particularly between west of Union and Eglinton.

Either way, between Dundas West/Bloor and Sheppard, we have a subway on the books. If we are measuring benefit by how much it will relieve congestion on our subway system (again, a purpose of SmartTrack), Metrolinx has done analysis that shows a subway relief line at least between Sheppard and University will have a substantially bigger impact that enhanced GO RER (aka SmartTrack east of Union) for about the same initial cost estimate. And if we choose to build that subway relief line, we might as well keep going to Dundas West as per the original Metrolinx plan (see above note about space).

So I only see merit in SmartTrack between Bloor and Eglinton on the west side. But that's a short slice of the monster plan that John Tory has proposed, and it's enough that I think justifies throwing the whole plan out.
Click to expand...

I dont see the need for separate rolling stock for Smarttrack and GO RER?

Smarttrack should be nothing more than a provision to GO RER for more stations in the 416 area, as well as complete fare integration with the TTC for staying in the 416 area (City of Toronto)

So you build more GO RER stations, you build perhaps longer GO RER trains to take on the increase of customers that will bleed off the TTC, and you program the PRESTO fare card to allow for people boarding on GO RER within the City borders to pay a fare that is equal to and covers transferring to TTC, and vice versa (borading Smarttrack after paying with PRESTO at TTC will allow for transfer without fee as well, as long as you get off GO RER when its still in the city borders) By the time Smarttrack/GO RER is built, TTC will be 100% PRESTO.

This will not cost $8 billion to do. Especially considering we nix the Eglinton West spur. I propose we invest the money that was earmarked for the Eglinton West spur for adding proper PTC for the corridors, which can allow for trains up to 5 minute frequencies and more trains on the corridor at once.
 
robmausser said:
I dont see the need for separate rolling stock for Smarttrack and GO RER?

Smarttrack should be nothing more than a provision to GO RER for more stations in the 416 area, as well as complete fare integration with the TTC for staying in the 416 area (City of Toronto)

So you build more GO RER stations, you build perhaps longer GO RER trains to take on the increase of customers that will bleed off the TTC, and you program the PRESTO fare card to allow for people boarding on GO RER within the City borders to pay a fare that is equal to and covers transferring to TTC, and vice versa (borading Smarttrack after paying with PRESTO at TTC will allow for transfer without fee as well, as long as you get off GO RER when its still in the city borders) By the time Smarttrack/GO RER is built, TTC will be 100% PRESTO.

This will not cost $8 billion to do. Especially considering we nix the Eglinton West spur. I propose we invest the money that was earmarked for the Eglinton West spur for adding proper PTC for the corridors, which can allow for trains up to 5 minute frequencies and more trains on the corridor at once.
Click to expand...

Okay, I can concur with most of that. But this is not what I have understood SmartTrack to be. And that's a problem.

It should also be noted that:
  • GO RER is already looking at additional stations.
  • There is room for improvement for fares, but I'm not sure that Metrolinx/the province will be on board with accepting TTC fares to ride GO in Toronto. There should be a co-fare between the TTC and GO that anyone using PRESTO is eligible, but discounted GO stickers have been off to a slow start.
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
Okay, I can concur with most of that. But this is not what I have understood SmartTrack to be. And that's a problem.

It should also be noted that:
  • GO RER is already looking at additional stations.
  • There is room for improvement for fares, but I'm not sure that Metrolinx/the province will be on board with accepting TTC fares to ride GO in Toronto. There should be a co-fare between the TTC and GO that anyone using PRESTO is eligible, but discounted GO stickers have been off to a slow start.
Click to expand...

I do agree that getting Metrolinx on board with TTC fare will be a challenge.

However, while I am glad that Metrolinx is looking at more stations downtown, and I don't want this to turn into a "we did it first" competition, but Metrolinx had zero interest into these downtown stations prior to Smarrtrack.

All of the reports on Go Electrification and GO RER prior to Smarttracks, erm, proposal if you can call it that, looked at maybe a station at Bathurst North and a station at St.Clair and stations on the Eglinton Line in terms of downtown infill.

So, perhaps Metrolinx already had this grand idea for many more stations downtown, and just never publicized it, however, as far as it reads to me, is that not until Smarttrack came out did Metrolinx even consider downtown station expansion.

I would like to give credit where credit may be due, and in this case, perhaps if John Tory had not brought up the idea of Smarttrack, downtown Toronto would be left out of the GO-RER ride.

My only real gripe with that is simply the negativity towards Tory and how if his Smarrtrack is absorbed into GO RER and benefits downtown Toronto greatly, he will not be given any credit.

And people wonder why he is slow to give up the reins on Smarttrack and its absorbed into GO-RER, because politically, it will unfortunately look like a "lose" for Tory, when in fact it is a win for Toronto. That sucks for him.
 
The sad reality is that the entire Smart Track section from Union and North/West is already functioning.

The UPX is a dismal failure by any metric. The ridership levels are below even Metrolinx's pitiful ridership goals. $500 million to move a pathetic 2,000 passengers a day representing less than 20% capacity is scandalous. The good news in this may surprisingly end up helping Tory and his ST plan.

I think Metrolinx would love to get the UPX off it's hands. With such horrid ridership levels the thing is going to be bleeding red ink. Not only has this been a public relations disaster for Metrolinx but also a white elephant that is financially unviable. Metrolinx's dire to be seen as the agency that can bring mass transit to the people has been completely undermined. The UPX has cost Metrolinx it's credibility with both the travelling public and taxpayers.

Metrolinx also knows that electrification of the line {spur portion} is out of the question. Queen's Park and Metrolinx know that to spend even more money on a line that only the Rothchild's can afford to take is a political no-win scenario. I think Metrolinx will offer Tory the entire route as his ST and let him and the TTC carry the operational, new stations, and electrification costs and get this fiscal and public relations noose off it's neck.
 
SmartTrack Eglinton exists to perform two functions:
1. So John Tory would not be obliged to support light rail on West Eglinton West (and thus be attacked by Doug Ford)
2. If he restricted SmartTrack to only existing rail it would be impossible to differentiate it from RER. So his advisers added this "difference"
 
dowlingm said:
SmartTrack Eglinton exists to perform two functions:
1. So John Tory would not be obliged to support light rail on West Eglinton West (and thus be attacked by Doug Ford)
2. If he restricted SmartTrack to only existing rail it would be impossible to differentiate it from RER. So his advisers added this "difference"
Click to expand...

So the Fords are continuing to fuck up transit in this city without occupying the mayor's office is what you're saying. :rolleyes:
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
So the Fords are continuing to fuck up transit in this city without occupying the mayor's office is what you're saying. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

They don't have the same credibility Toronto-wide, but - the west end is their home turf. And, the Eglinton land divestiture (which makes LRT trickier) happened on their watch. So they have skin in this game, plus it's handing them a soapbox on a platter.

- Paul
 
dowlingm said:
SmartTrack Eglinton exists to perform two functions:
1. So John Tory would not be obliged to support light rail on West Eglinton West (and thus be attacked by Doug Ford)
2. If he restricted SmartTrack to only existing rail it would be impossible to differentiate it from RER. So his advisers added this "difference"
Click to expand...

Quite likely, those factors were a part of Tory's motivation during the election time.

But he should ditch that plan, and he should do that fairly soon. "SmartTrack Eglinton" is a money pit that has a potential of killing the whole SmarTrack concept (the concept that is, IMO, sensible overall).

I would not be surprised if Tory's team is actually waiting for the release of another report: regarding the use of Eglinton West LRT, or enhanced LRT, in lieu of the western leg of Smartrack; and that they are trying to defer the disclosure of "SmartTrack Eglinton" projected cost until Tory can refer to LRT as his Plan B.
 
Rainforest said:
Quite likely, those factors were a part of Tory's motivation during the election time.

But he should ditch that plan, and he should do that fairly soon. "SmartTrack Eglinton" is a money pit that has a potential of killing the whole SmarTrack concept (the concept that is, IMO, sensible overall).

I would not be surprised if Tory's team is actually waiting for the release of another report: regarding the use of Eglinton West LRT, or enhanced LRT, in lieu of the western leg of Smartrack; and that they are trying to defer the disclosure of "SmartTrack Eglinton" projected cost until Tory can refer to LRT as his Plan B.
Click to expand...

He should simply replace the Eglinton spur with an "enhanced" Eglinton West LRT, which is exactly what Metrolinx is looking into doing.

By enhanced they mean more separated from traffic than the current setup of down the middle of the street. So possibly utilizing the richview expressway corridor where still available so its beside the road rather than in the middle of it.
 
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