Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yes.

What's complaining about a line under construction going to solve?

Fine.

 

[rbt]

John Tory made it an election issue. Karen Stintz made it an election issue. David Soknacki made it an election issue.

And just exactly what can any of these 3 people do to make the DRL happen in the Mayor position? The best they can do is stand out of the way and cheer from the sidelines like the rest of us.

We deserve a mayor who will actually do work instead of cheering from the sidelines. I expect my mayor to make promises and progress with the powers they are granted.

The full-extent of the DRL promise should be `I will rapidly approve any plan that Metrolinx and TTC come up with for the DRL which the province is willing to fund`.

The problem with the pro DRL candidates is that's essentially all they are promising. In Tory's case he threatens to delay the DRL that's actually necessary for something the province is already promising to do. Any candidate focusing solely on the DRL has the intention of accomplishing as much with the TTC as Ford did; 4 more years wasted at the mayors office. 4 more years of bickering over the approach and delays to the implementation.

Demand real transit improvements directly from your elected mayor. Toronto, without the province, does have power to do some things on it's own.

DRL is big and flashy, but in addition to that we could fix the transit priority at lights, improve route management, measure service quality in a manner similar to London (then actually improve service); none of those 3 require spending unachievable amounts of money but could massively improve the TTC and even reduce taxes by improving efficiency.

Any candidate focusing on the DRL as the primary plank of their transit platform looks like a dud candidate to me. Stintz at least has other things but I'm not finding much of anything from Tory on his website; I hope that changes before fall.

 

[Solid Snake]

Anyways ECLRT is being built and it's not fully grade separated east of Leaside, so you guys will just have to live with it.

Eglinton Crosstown doesn't need to be buried. The best option would be to elevate but a combination of:

A-No Left turns

B-Transit Priority

C-Barriers

to avoid this

and this

Would reduce the scepticism and critics on the LRT projects. People fear that the LRT will be similar to our current streetcars line that are operating in their own ROW

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think the left turn prohibitions and transit priority will be in place. Don't think there will be barriers beyond the platforms, but is it really necessary along the entire route in any case? Comparison with Spadina is off given the short length, high stop and traffic signal density vs. Eglinton East. It is a completely different creature.

In any case, if/when there is a need for additional capacity, it isn't that much of an issue to contemplate and implement grade separation. Elevated is probably preferable for that stretch.

AoD

 

[Solid Snake]

I think the left turn prohibitions and transit priority will be in place. Don't think there will be barriers beyond the platforms, but is it really necessary along the entire route in any case?

AoD

The scepticism and critics on the LRT projects are due to what people have observed from the Spadina and St.Clair routes which at times are frustratingly slow due to the lack of transit priority signals and left turn restriction. They rightfully doubt that the LRT will be any different.

Hopefully you're right about the LRT having those enhancements. I think having barriers is worth it due to the initial investment (billions of dollars). If collisions which causes delays can be avoided and the LRT can constantly operate at full speed, then it's worth the investment which will convince people that subways are not the only solution.

Those lines (Sheppard, Finch, Eglinton East) needs to be *true* rapid transit lines worthy of being added to the subway maps which is what this city truly lacks. All I'm saying is "let's do it right" and the fact that Metrolinx seems to lean towards that objective. Even you can understand that when it was Miller and Giambrone running the show, it seemed that "rapid" was secondary to "cute European transit"

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The scepticism and critics on the LRT projects are due to what people have observed from the Spadina and St.Clair routes which at times are frustratingly slow due to the lack of transit priority signals and left turn restriction. They rightfully doubt that the LRT will be any different.

As proposed these lines have very little in common with EC, and if one chose to equate them (which I highly doubt stems from careful observation and understanding the context, but more due to political rhetoric), then they will just have to see after the line opens.

Hopefully you're right about the LRT having those enhancements. I think having barriers is worth it due to the initial investment (billions of dollars). If collisions which causes delays can be avoided and the LRT can constantly operate at full speed, then it's worth the investment which will convince people that subways are not the only solution.

Actually, a crash into the barrier by itself is going to cause delay - you can't move from the scene of the accident anyways.

Those lines (Sheppard, Finch, Eglinton East) needs to be *true* rapid transit lines worthy of being added to the subway maps which is what this city truly lacks. All I'm saying is "let's do it right" and the fact that Metrolinx seems to lean towards that objective. Even you can understand that when it was Miller and Giambrone running the show, it seemed that "rapid" was secondary to "cute European transit"

What people want is improvement - incremental or otherwise. Delaying that in search of the perfect will only lead to disappointment.

AoD

 

[ehlow]

Yes.

What's complaining about a line under construction going to solve?

It helps people who want to feel bad about the city they live in and practice the most popular sport in Toronto: trashing the transit system & current transit plans.

 

[ehlow]

My personal favourite from the Toronto Transit Ideas Greatest Hits album is "North York Relief Line". Such a classic! It's catchy, but at the same time incredibly annoying.

That's a good one.

"Huh 'relief line'? That sounds like the line is urgently needed. I can use that phrase to push the subway that goes through MY ward and raise property values for my neighbourhood." - Councillor for that ward

Next up, "Scarborough relief line", "Etobicoke relief line", "York region relief line", "Forest Hill relief line", "Beaches relief line"

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It helps people who want to feel bad about the city they live in and practice the most popular sport in Toronto: trashing the transit system & current transit plans.

I hope you never go on twitter!

 

[ehlow]

I hope you never go on twitter!

No you're right hockey is definitely the undisputed sport of Toronto, followed by basketball if the Raptors are good. Northern uprising yall: elevate all transit! It's the red hot LRT revival. We the north-bound on Line 1 Yonge.

 

[11th]

Maybe this is for a reason. LRT ridership partly depends on whether it serves locals only, or adds people who take a short bus ride to LRT instead of a longer but more direct bus ride.

Say, will someone boarding at Finch and Brimley and wishing to get onto the Yonge subway, take a long bus ride straight to Yonge, or take a short bus ride to LRT to Sheppard subway to Yonge?

Since both options are somewhat reasonable, it is hard to predict in advance what the majority of riders will actually do.

It depends on whether the Yonge subway's extended beyond Finch. The longer the line's extended up north, the less incentive for people on Finch Ave. E. to bus to Finch station - and the more likely they'll gravitate towards the RT on Sheppard (be it LRT or subway).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

[*]When the underground portion is over 10km long, over 50% of the entire length, costs over $4B, and it would cost less than 10% extra to make it fully grade-separated, then it does not make sense.
[/LIST]

Making it "fully grade separated" (I assume you mean HRT). Is a bad idea. That would essentially make any extension of the line east of Kennedy or west of Mt. Dennis impossible. The reason we chose underground LRT is because it could be underground in the central portion, while having the flexibility to provide service in areas where there isn't enough demand for HRT/subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

10% extra cost to make fully grade separated? Where did you get that number?

Current cost of ECLRT: $5.3 billion. Source: http://www.thecrosstown.ca/the-project/fact-sheets/eglinton-crosstown
Extra cost of burying the east surface portion: $1.9 billion. Source: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4124.shtml

1.9/5.3 billion = 35% increase in costs.

Anyways ECLRT is being built and it's not fully grade separated east of Leaside, so you guys will just have to live with it.

And burying it would eliminate the Finch and Sheppard LRTs.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Other than extra buses, she has said far too little...

Her comments about extra busses are the most encouraging thing I've heard from a politician RE transit in a long time. It's one of the few times I've seen a politician acknowledge that operations are just as important as capital expenditures.

The next best thing I've heard from any mayoral candidate is a plan that would essentially duplicate what GO is doing with electrification at more than four times the cost.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No you're the one talking about how because Olivia didn't support the DRL 25 years she doesn't support it now.

I wouldn't have supported the RL 25 years ago either. In 2031, the line will only move 13k people. 25 years ago, that number would have been far lower. If we built the RL 25 years ago, for at least a few decades we would have a near useless hole in the ground almost as wasteful as that pathetic and disgraceful Sheppard boondoggle.