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Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?
- Thread starter nfitz
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
Right now we are trying to develop our proposal, get the website populated and facebook group in full swing.
In short order we'll be moving on to those points. We are trying to see what it would take for some kind of media campaign.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Great job and I hope you guys are very successful 
Rainforest
Senior Member
Actually, this is an interesting concept.
Biggest problems would be not with the plan itself, but with implementation:
1) Being very different from the current TTC plans, it will be very hard to explain and sell.
2) Extra $$. You did a decent job of offsetting some costs with cuts in other places, but still it would cost more than the current plan.
Speaking about the plan per se - many interesting ideas. Even the blue BRT line, Malvern - STC - current SRT alignment - McCowan - Kingston, makes some sense - if it can be built inexpensively - as a connection within Scarborough.
Some objections:
1) Eglinton east of Don Mills gets express bus only - that does not seem right. That street has quite a bit of potential, and would be better off with at least LRT.
2) Sharp angle that connects Eglinton subway and DRL does not seem right, either. How many riders will travel across the tip? Most of the riders getting to that tip, will transfer to / from connecting routes: Don Mills, Eglinton, Lawrence.
There shouldn't be a permanent mode change on Eglinton at Don Mills. My preference is to run a continuous LRT on Eglinton. But if you manage to get subway west of Don Mills, it is better to keep it open-ended for future extension towards Kennedy, rather than loop into DRL.
DRL / Don Mills mode change makes more sense, although an alternative of future extention of the subway further north, or north-east, may be considered.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
What I'd love to see for Scarborough is recognition that Scarborough Centre (a mall! ew! ick!) is the main hub of the area and a radial transit approach makes the most sense. The Sheppard and BD subways should be finished to STC, while LRT lines should run up McCowan, to Malvern along the RT extension route, and along Ellesmere (which Durham Region is already considering).
kEiThZ
Superstar
Check in to the group. We have something very close.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
What is interesting is that of all the Scarborough Councillors, Councillor Raymond Cho supported subways close to or into Malvern from the very beginning
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
^^ Which they'll have to be doing anyways once we realize that the SELRT shouldn't have been created in the first place. For vastly superior service, we could get a subway at only a tiny bit more than the LRT.
Which is why having a plan (the plan that we're trying to develop) be as close to cost-neutral with TC as possible, it will make the plan that much more attractive to politicians and the public.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
For political buy-in you should probably overlay the ward boundaries on any plan you come up with to know which councillors will loose or gain from the original Transit City plan. If a ward looses service inside its boundaries (LRT/BRT removed or Subway downgraded to LRT/BRT) then subtract 1 or if a ward gains service (new LRT/BRT/Subway or LRT/BRT made subway) add 1. If the plus minus count is neutral or higher and the price tag is near neutral then you would have the greatest likelihood of political support.
Very good idea! When we get the alignments finalized, we'll do that.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Can they afford a 12-15 billion dollar purely LRT plan that proves to be ineffective at providing truly rapid transit in the city?
Building a transit system is like building a medieval cathedral. It starts with a plan and takes more than a generation to finish. Those cathedral, palaces and monuments would have turned out to be horrendous if they took only a decade and decided to pare away essential elements. Transit City in my books is doing exactly that: a mediocre rush job. They've responded to the "subway to every ward" cry with LRT to every ward. Neither is effective.
As for the impact on our progeny, I would venture to suggest that future generations will be damn grateful that we spent the money now when subways cost 300 million/km than when they have to build it at 1 billion/km in 20 years (if the current rate of inflation for construction projects holds). You will also note that the rate of inflation of construction projects is greater than prime and standard inflation combined. So from a strictly financial perspective, we would be better off going into debt to build as much infrastructure as possible today.
Future generations will be grateful that we spent 20 billion to do it right than 15 billion to do it so-so and leaving them with billions worth of work to do (to fill all of TC's gaps and flaws).
Fresh Start
Banned
That depends on who you explain it to. There is no sense in cutting corners with an inferior transit expansion intiative today when 20 years from now the cries for new subways everywhere will be so loud to rectify all the damage TC will do from adding to congestion on the existing subway lines to making commutes more complicated for pedestrians and motorists alike. And don't think that the cost to build relief lines along corridors parallel to TC priortized corridors in the future, won't be even more cost-prohibitive than just building a subway line in the first place.
And what's the issue with BRT anyway? Many major cities incorporate it into their transit networks and it's more than capable of providing subway-quality service at a fraction of the costs. Suburban corridors in Scarborough and Etobicoke do not need streetcars, buses can suffice and have enough money leftover for grade separated transit through more densely populated areas.
Can it be built inexpensively? Well, of course. Remember once the Bloor Line is extended to SCC the SRT corridor would become obcelete. Converting the line would give it a second life and retrofitting it (paving over the trackbed, widening the ROW to the west) is of minor expense (not exceeding $20M). The elevated guideway ROW may be more of a challenge but again, less than the cost to upgrade it to handle LRT.
Buses entering upper Kennedy Stn would utilize the abandoned balloon loop at the western end for quick turn-around back onto the route. The alignment south of Kennedy Stn more or less follows the Uxbridge Sub down to Scarbrough GO Stn then continues adjacent Midland Avenue to Kingston ROW in a side-of-roadway alignment. The transition onto Kingston Rd would be via an underground ventilated station where transfers between the Scarborough-Malvern and Kingston-Ellesmere BRT lines would take place. Both Kingston Rd and Danforth Avenue are 6 lanes in width through this stretch so there's ample room for a ROW down the medians.
This would help out the people of Scarbrough far FAR more than what they are planning to do. I'm so glad you understand my perspective.
In the long term, if demand warrants it the combined DRL-Eglinton subway line could separate in the future creating a five-stop extension to the B-D line. In the meanwhile however the Golden Mile could make do with express bus services. Note how the B-D angles in towards Eglinton through this stretch so it quite reasonable that folk at Warden/Eglinton wouldn't mind taking the bus towards any of three proximal stations (west, east or south), whichever best suits their commute needs. That's reasonable.
You're not the first to ask me about that. I think I'm going to modify my map and re-post it. I did like that location for a hub however because of three factors: (1) ability to create a single GO station for both the Midtown-Seaton and Richmond Hill corridors accessible to the subway (otherwise RH GO would have no direct connection to either Eglinton or DRL subways), (2) Wynford-Concorde is a major employment and residential area that'd be within easy walking distance of a subway here, and (3) transit down the 404 could drop-off customers here meaning a direct link to the DRL from Markham. DMLRT into this stop as well instead of into OSC minimizes the need to backtrack.
I thought it better to merge them rather than risk having more stubways on our hands. I kinda also like the fact that linking the two lines together means one can go from the airport to Throncliffe Park or from the Junction to Leaside one-seat without transferring. I'd be more in favor of LRT along Eglinton too had they decided to make the entire ROW grade-separated and not just the central section. Given the TTC's track record, just how long before bunching/stalling ensues making the supposed time savings through the tunnel non-existent? Better to go with HRT from scratch and let demand in the corridor grow as it has on Sheppard.