Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?

[scarberiankhatru]

This is what the Save Our Subways group has come up with:

1) B-D subway completed using the rail corridor to STC.
2) Sheppard Subway completed to STC.
3) SELRT running from Agincourt to Meadowvale (truncated version of the TC proposal)
4) Eglinton LRT (up for debate, however) extended to Eglinton and Kingston.
5) Scarborough Malvern downgraded to BRT, from Kennedy to Meadowvale.
6) Progress-Malvern LRT (formerly the SRT), downgraded to at-grade LRT, from STC to Malvern Centre.

Why on earth wouldn't the Sheppard line run through the CN/CP interchange? Why create a triangle of subway/GO/LRT transfers when you can create a triple interchange? There's nothing at Brimley & Pitfield, but at least the Brimley & Progress area has a decent number of jobs and a potentially enormous number of future towers. The rail corridor NE of Kennedy no longer exists...it's been sold off and built over. It looks like Kennedy will be rebuilt at an angle, but if it is, why not just run up the RT corridor? Otherwise it'll only be running in the [currently occupied] rail corridor for literally a few hundred metres. The only reason to approach STC from the east is to combine B/D with Sheppard, which isn't a great idea.

This is still just a 'how to spend money on Malvern' plan that doesn't fully address riders on corridors like McCowan, Lawrence, or Ellesmere - all of which are busier than Malvern. UTSC needs a better connection to STC, not a BRT that overlaps two LRT lines and still leaves people a 5+ minute walk from the campus. The main route replaced by a grade-separated LRT to Malvern sees only 8000 rides a day.

 

[nfitz]

For your first question regarding cost estimates, we have another member of the group working on those right now.

Fair enough!

As for the BRT/LRT question: it doesn't cost anything extra (other than operating) to run a bus in an LRT exclusive ROW. The BRT was extended to Kennedy and Meadowvale (using the Eglinton LRT and SELRT corridors for part of it) mainly to avoid a transfer (that's one of our big selling points: no un-necessary transfers).

Okay ... though you'd probably have to stop using those centre poles, but that's easy enough. I guess it works ... though the implication is that for Sheppard you provide more service east of Markham road than you do west (maybe head north to Malvern instead?); but for Eglinton it's reasonable. What do you do with the BRT proposal from Victoria Park to Eglinton/Kingston that has been proposed.

With regards to the B-D extension, we haven't examined in detail how to get from Kennedy to the hydro corridor, or what steps we will need with regards to expropriation. This map is more of a concept plan than a 'to the letter' plan at this stage.

Fair enough; without significant expropriation, I think the only two options are rebuilding Kennedy station so that the subway comes out heading north up the existing SRT alignment, or continuing east down Eglinton - and then perhaps up Danforth/McCowan to SRT.

 

[DavidH]

This is what the Save Our Subways group has come up with:

1) B-D subway completed using the rail corridor to STC.
2) Sheppard Subway completed to STC.
3) SELRT running from Agincourt to Meadowvale (truncated version of the TC proposal)
4) Eglinton LRT (up for debate, however) extended to Eglinton and Kingston.
5) Scarborough Malvern downgraded to BRT, from Kennedy to Meadowvale.
6) Progress-Malvern LRT (formerly the SRT), downgraded to at-grade LRT, from STC to Malvern Centre.

Interesting. Any reason for not interlining the B-D and Sheppard line? Obviously it would require the Sheppard stations to be increased to 6 car length, and it would pose operational challenges due to the longer line length (though I assume half of B-D trains would turn back at STC).

Still, I suppose you set these up as "across the platform" transfers for those who need it, with minimal inconvenience.

My bigger question is why is SELRT retained as an LRT? Given the two subway extensions, ridership may well be within the range that a BRT could handle, and it would provide the opportunity for some cost savings, even if they were mostly symbolic.

Overall, though, it's a sensible proposal. I'd like to see a coherent proposal for other parts of Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

The SELRT was retained because of the criticisms of various folks here who thought that cancelling it risked any and all improvements (see we aren't that inflexible).

As for the BD line, there's debate. Some want the hydro corridor. Some like me would prefer the streets (eglinton-Danforth-McCowan). Others the SRT corridor. The important thing for us is to put out the idea that the extension is needed. There is no absolute need to get bogged with details. At this stage, we might have to make some compromises on detail to get the message out there as quickly as possibly.....(as an aside here I wonder if using the hydro corridor is all that bad because tunnelling can be done without being too invasive and it's only a portion of the corridor that's been settled, not the whole thing).

Finally the SMLRT. This can be changed to BRT using curbside diamond lanes for the most part. It might even be possible to add diamond lanes to Eglinton even with the LRT in place (that's gotta be investigated a bit). The goal for us is to get rid of the transfer and allow for interlining with the Kingston BRT so that there's continuity on Kingston.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Getting the message out is one thing, but when you do it with a map, the map *is* the message. If the intended message is just extending Sheppard and Danforth to STC, but the map also includes LRT and BRT wandering around Scarborough, the focus will not be on the subway extensions.

I don't know how far the tracks extend beyond Kennedy, but if they don't go all the way to Midland or if rebuilding the tail track isn't impossible, the subway can easily run up Midland, which is a good alignment.

And if two lines are going to be run to Sheppard & Meadowvale - which is only a few minutes away from an all-day GO station - might as well excavate the money pit a bit deeper and run them to the Zoo.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ We did invite you to the group to give us that input....

Like gweed said. It's a work in progress. He and a few others have only been at this for a few days.

And we're still trying to get the website going and trying to come up with a game plan on how to get the message out.

 

[gweed123]

Getting the message out is one thing, but when you do it with a map, the map *is* the message. If the intended message is just extending Sheppard and Danforth to STC, but the map also includes LRT and BRT wandering around Scarborough, the focus will not be on the subway extensions.

I don't know how far the tracks extend beyond Kennedy, but if they don't go all the way to Midland or if rebuilding the tail track isn't impossible, the subway can easily run up Midland, which is a good alignment.

And if two lines are going to be run to Sheppard & Meadowvale - which is only a few minutes away from an all-day GO station - might as well excavate the money pit a bit deeper and run them to the Zoo.

I would support running the Scarborough-Malvern BRT up to the zoo, but not the SELRT. Why? Because part of TC is leaving the door open for extensions into Durham Region. Turning the LRT north at Meadowvale complicates things by having some of the routes run up to the zoo, others continue into Durham Region, etc. BRT is far more flexible, and wouldn't even require extra lanes on Meadowvale north of Sheppard, because that section of road is only lightly used anyway. I will make the change on the map to extend the BRT north to the zoo.

As for the B-D extension, that is something we will need to look further into.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ We did invite you to the group to give us that input....

Like gweed said. It's a work in progress. He and a few others have only been at this for a few days.

And we're still trying to get the website going and trying to come up with a game plan on how to get the message out.

Invited where? There's like 8 pages of posts in the Save Our Subways thread that I didn't read.

Anyway, everything I said is extremely obvious...McCowan, Ellesmere, and Lawrence are all busier than the corridors slated for lines in that map yet will see no improvements, Agincourt station needs to go where the two GO lines meet to prevent three interchanges from getting built almost (but not quite) close enough to walk between, even google maps shows that the rail corridor is now filled with houses.

 

[kEiThZ]

Invites come in your PMs or in the Social groups link of Quick Links...

 

[nfitz]

Getting the message out is one thing, but when you do it with a map, the map *is* the message.

Scarberienkhatru is exactly right; once the image get's out it get's a life of it's own. If the current image got out (say in the Toronto Star), you'd end up fighting one group upset that you want to build a subway under all these houses in Agincourt, and another group upset you want to build under all these houses along the old rail right-of-way. Be very careful with what you release.

Remember back when those LRT on Spadina pictures made it into the paper in the 1980s? I thought that would end the project, all the fuss about trying to build the Scarborough RT down the middle of Spadina ...

 

[kEiThZ]

Nic,

Keep giving us advice like that and we might just give you an invite....

 

[gweed123]

Interesting. Any reason for not interlining the B-D and Sheppard line? Obviously it would require the Sheppard stations to be increased to 6 car length, and it would pose operational challenges due to the longer line length (though I assume half of B-D trains would turn back at STC).

Still, I suppose you set these up as "across the platform" transfers for those who need it, with minimal inconvenience.

My bigger question is why is SELRT retained as an LRT? Given the two subway extensions, ridership may well be within the range that a BRT could handle, and it would provide the opportunity for some cost savings, even if they were mostly symbolic.

Overall, though, it's a sensible proposal. I'd like to see a coherent proposal for other parts of Toronto.

The main reason for not interlining is exactly the reasons you mentioned (frequencies, train length, etc). What I think would be best for STC station is similar to what St. George is now (only have direct escalators to the lower platform). If you stand on the YUS platform at St. George looking west, the tracks turn north for the Spadina line, but also continue west, and go down and connect to B-D. This seems like a good thing to do at STC as well. That way, if the lines are eventually interlined, it will merely involve flipping a track switch to send the Sheppard trains into Upper STC instead of Lower STC. We would then do what was done at Lower Bay, and close off the lower platform from service.

Build it so that the option is there, but I think for now keeping the lines separate is the best thing to do.

And as for why SELRT is still an LRT, 2 reasons:
1) To appease the LRT people (we have to keep SOME LRT lines in order maintain their support).
2) Extension eastward into Durham Region. Future extensions could increase ridership on the line, and for people living in Durham Region, LRT may be seen as a more attractive option than BRT.

 

[Rainforest]

This is what the Save Our Subways group has come up with:

1) B-D subway completed using the rail corridor to STC.
2) Sheppard Subway completed to STC.
3) SELRT running from Agincourt to Meadowvale (truncated version of the TC proposal)
4) Eglinton LRT (up for debate, however) extended to Eglinton and Kingston.
5) Scarborough Malvern downgraded to BRT, from Kennedy to Meadowvale.
6) Progress-Malvern LRT (formerly the SRT), downgraded to at-grade LRT, from STC to Malvern Centre.

Thoughts:

a) The concept is great. A much more sensible network for Scarborough than what TTC is currently proposing, without exorbitant costs.

Yet, it retains enough similarity with the official plans to make it comprehensible for less involved readers.

b) As pointed above, routing of both subway lines should be revisited.

It is a smart idea to approach STC in such a way that future interlining of BD and Sheppard is possible. But, OK to sacrifice this option if the revised routing does not allow that done easily.

c) STC-Malvern LRT is OK - even if it is somewhat overshot, it will be better than what TTC is currently planning. You route will be cheaper, while having more stops and providing better local service.

d) When calculating costs, it can be noted that BRT on Morningside does not actually need dedicated lanes - congestion there is unlikely. It can run in LRT lanes on Eglinton, then in dedicated BRT lanes on Kingston, but use regular all-purpose lanes on Morningside.

I would not draw dashed lines on Morningside on the map - too many details dilute the message; but would use this point in cost calculations.

e) It might be a good idea to show Guildwood GO station on the map - after all, connection to GO is the main reason to extend Eglinton LRT past Kennedy.

f) How about a separate map #2, which shows all same lines as #1, plus future LRT / BRT lines on Lawrence (across Kennedy towards Don Mills), Ellesmere (probably, east of STC), and McCowan (north of STC).

They can be presented as dashed lines, and show how nicely they integrate with Phase I lines, subways in particular.

 

[Fresh Start]

Getting the message out is one thing, but when you do it with a map, the map *is* the message. If the intended message is just extending Sheppard and Danforth to STC, but the map also includes LRT and BRT wandering around Scarborough, the focus will not be on the subway extensions.

Well, that's why I keep pimping out this. Though I probably should've used thinner lines to represent BRT/LRT, otherwise I think its message is clear and to the point: having all the major transit lines of Scarborough converge at Scarborough Town Centre is good for business. People like to know they'll never be stranded for too long awaiting a way out into the greater city area. Also making these services route continuous as opposed to just terminating at SCC, prevents long pauses in people's commutes.

One could argue that my preference for BRT/limited stopping express routes and all out eliminating LRT (except along Don Mills) is a downgrade in service quality, but I beg to differ. Sans extreme winter weather conditions, buses can actually acheive the high speeds and minimal headways required to make a long-distance commute time-effective. And if artics were used along some of the routes that'd equate less drivers needed as well, one of the main advantages of LRT. I think even the LRT crowd, in time, could come to realize this is a much more comprehensive plan than Transit City.

Anyhow, I hope our advocacy efforts amount to something positive and can persuade the next mayor/TTC chair to re-negotiate just how to spend the transit funds windfall.

 

[Ansem]

Anyhow, I hope our advocacy efforts amount to something positive and can persuade the next mayor/TTC chair to re-negotiate just how to spend the transit funds windfall.

That's what I've been saying all along...

The next mayor holds the key to the future of transit in Toronto. With Miller and most likely Giambrone out of the picture, the next mayor will decide if it's subway or LRT like Miller wanted.

To have study politics, politicians are consistant in one thing only...beside lying. They have ***MASSIVE EGOS***. They want to leave THEIR legacy behind and not their predecessors'.

Miller did that. Sheppard to Scarborough Centre was Lastman's legacy and even with studies planning on the extension, he scrap the project and came up with transit city...his baby, his legacy...

He was not about to fulfill Lastman's legacy...

With the Anti-Miller feeling in Toronto, who in his right mind would run for mayor and would want to use Miller's ideas and be associated with him...
As succesful campaign should aim at convincing Torontonians that they will be very different from Miller...

That's why I think our job is

1-Inform the population
2-Get councillors support and media coverage to help inform the population
3-Meet with the eventual candidates and "lobby" for subways

In the end, the next mayor is the key.
Another thing that is constant with them... They will do anything "as reasonable as possible" to get elected.

Last time the suburb massively voted gave Lastman's the keys to city hall.
A Sheppard subway,Bloor-Danforth to STC would pretty much garantee the votes of North York and Scarborough...

Instead of having the Malvern LRT, move it to Islington in Etobicoke to get support and this routes makes more sense than Morningside...