saveoursubways (SOS)

[scarberiankhatru]

I honestly don't think SOS cares what you think anymore so stop wasting your time posting what you think

Yes, they do care. They asked for my input and much of the plan and their opposition to Transit City is explicitly based on what I've posted here over the years.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Yes, they do care. They asked for my input and much of the plan and their opposition to Transit City is explicitly based on what I've posted here over the years.

Some of your points raised will be accepted by SOS...some won't. No need to get upset if they overlook commentary you deem as crucial. In the end, if it bites them in the butt then they would have to deal with it and can only blame themselves.

 

[nfitz]

Subways were explicitly rejected by the city. If you guys can't even deal with some actual common sense commentary being thrown at the plan, how on earth are you going to get anywhere with Giambrone or Metrolinx or parties hostile to subway expansions? By talking about Miller's folly and listing individual buildings along a route? Facts and finesse will help you, fiction and frothing won't.

To put on the serious hat for a minute ... scarberiankhatru is 100% correct.

I'm really not sure how you can go around changing people's minds without some kind of cost-benefit analysis to show how your plan is better. To make a change in direction, people are going to have to see something more dramatic than just words on the page.

Remember back to earlier this year; the only reason DRL started to get momentum after all these years, is that people saw 3 numbers; the current number of passengers at Bloor-Yonge; the future predicted numbers with the Yonge Extension; and the future predicted numbers with both the Yonge Extension and the Danforth-Yonge leg of the DRL. It was that crystal clear information that started to change people's minds about the priority of the first DRL leg.

 

[Rainforest]

To put on the serious hat for a minute ... scarberiankhatru is 100% correct.

I'm really not sure how you can go around changing people's minds without some kind of cost-benefit analysis to show how your plan is better. To make a change in direction, people are going to have to see something more dramatic than just words on the page.

Remember back to earlier this year; the only reason DRL started to get momentum after all these years, is that people saw 3 numbers; the current number of passengers at Bloor-Yonge; the future predicted numbers with the Yonge Extension; and the future predicted numbers with both the Yonge Extension and the Danforth-Yonge leg of the DRL. It was that crystal clear information that started to change people's minds about the priority of the first DRL leg.

True. But, DRL East is the only route in the whole GTA where the ridership projections absolutely mandate a full-fledged HRT subway.

In all other corridors, cheaper technologies can work. To advocate for subways there, one must use arguments other than capacity - such as travel speed, network connectivity, and intensification potential. Those are more ambiguous / open to interpretetation than capacity limits.

 

[nfitz]

One can still do a cost-benefit analysis. One has to assign costs to the extra travel times, congestion, etc.

 

[EnviroTO]

I saw discussion about the extension to Mississauga in another thread completely unrelated to the topic of subway expansion into Mississauga so I figured I would post this here for discussion. I think this route balances the benefits of getting to Mississauga Centre quickly, reduces distances, and serves Dundas appropriately but doesn't serve Hurontario since that would duplicate the Hurontario high order transit.

 

[TOareaFan]

I saw discussion about the extension to Mississauga in another thread completely unrelated to the topic of subway expansion into Mississauga so I figured I would post this here for discussion. I think this route balances the benefits of getting to Mississauga Centre quickly, reduces distances, and serves Dundas appropriately but doesn't serve Hurontario since that would duplicate the Hurontario high order transit.

That is a good looking route until you get to the stretch between Cawthra and MCC......just not sure how you go about tunneling under those houses which are very typical suburbia.

having a stop at Cawthra and Dixie, though would make sense as it might allow for some pretty nifty GO/MT/BT connections as Cawthra is a pretty handy road route between Brampton in the North (via the 410) and points south in Mississauga.

Still think that stretch from there to MCC would be a tough one to build and probably the reason that most transit advocates see the GO line being the easiest route to follow into/near MCC.

 

[EnviroTO]

That is a good looking route until you get to the stretch between Cawthra and MCC......just not sure how you go about tunneling under those houses which are very typical suburbia.

It barely touches any residential properties. It goes under mostly parks and a little bit of Silver Creek Blvd. It could probably be built only running under the properties of two houses on Silver Creek right next to the school and maybe under a bit of the backyards on Janene Ct. So under two houses, no other buildings, and under mostly public land so it is easy to create emergency exits.

 

[TOareaFan]

It barely touches any residential properties. It goes under mostly parks and a little bit of Silver Creek Blvd. It could probably be built only running under the properties of two houses on Silver Creek right next to the school and maybe under a bit of the backyards on Janene Ct. So under two houses, no other buildings, and under mostly public land so it is easy to create emergency exits.

I think you would have an easier time convincing me than you would convincing the folks that live there

Would it not be easier to take it over to Hurontario and then build a "super tunnel" (I think I just coined a new transit phrase) that could house both the subway and the LRT that Mississauga/Brampton keep talking about.....then both the LRT and B-D could run between Dundas and MCC and have stops at the Cooksville GO? Probably more expensive but less disruptive and more useful.?

 

[nfitz]

That is a good looking route until you get to the stretch between Cawthra and MCC......just not sure how you go about tunneling under those houses which are very typical suburbia.

It doesn't look like that many; it looks like quite an interesting solution; there might be only one or two houses that you'd have to demolish - far less than you see on a typical subway project; there's a few that will have to go for the underground section of the Eglinton LRT, and that doesn't seem to phase anyone.

The bigger issue is that your running underneath a creek for part of the alignment, and it is shown as going under an 18-story apartment building at the corner of Cawthra and Dundas ... but there's probably a way to squeeze by it.

If Mississauga had been pushing something like this the way York has been pushing, it would likely have been under construction by now.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think it would affect far more properties taking more of Hurontario. There rail corridor will be full of tracks after it goes all-day so the subway will either take away people's back yards or run deep under the railway. If the subway enters Hurontario at Cooksville there will be no way to put the station there on the curve which will already impact a group of townhouses. If the subway enters Hurontario at Dundas the properties on the north-east corner will be severely impacted. This "super tunnel" would not only be expensive but a single subway station along the route would be a nightmare to design with four parallel tracks and would be duplicating service. An extra 500m of subway at minimum if no station is put at Cooksville for the benefit of a single station on Hurontario near Fairview where there will already be high order transit at the additional cost of a "super tunnel" to appease home owners which will not see anything out their windows during the construction period if it is a bored tunnel?

 

[EnviroTO]

The bigger issue is that your running underneath a creek for part of the alignment, and it is shown as going under an 18-story apartment building at the corner of Cawthra and Dundas ... but there's probably a way to squeeze by it.

If the tunnel is bored at a reasonable depth I don't think it would be impacted much. The 18 storey apartment building should be no problem since there is a huge lot between it and Cawthra Gardens and the Dundas Street road allowance at this location is wide enough that fitting the curve of the tracks should be possible without running directly under other properties.

http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=4...=z_fGy5fWXFjjDdireRo_6w&cbp=12,293.86,,0,6.69

 

[EnviroTO]

One other benefit besides the shorter route is that the alignment of the subway at Burnhamthorpe and Hurontario is east-west. Hurontario high order transit will be running north-south. There might be value in another station at Burnhamthorpe and Confederation Parkway but other alignments would not allow that to occur.

 

[nfitz]

If the tunnel is bored at a reasonable depth I don't think it would be impacted much. The 18 storey apartment building should be no problem since there is a huge lot between it and Cawthra Gardens and the Dundas Street road allowance at this location is wide enough that fitting the curve of the tracks should be possible without running directly under other properties.

It's definitely worth some serious consideration if there is ever talk of extending into Mississauga, instead of the most recent TTC plan to meet Hurontario in Cooksville, and then head north.

 

[EnviroTO]

I figured that since Parkside Village is under construction and most of the properties around Confederation will be high density but not along an already planned high order transit line I might as well put that station on the map. Confederation station unserved by other lines will add far more value than a station on Hurontario which already has the Hurontario high order transit and a GO station.