saveoursubways (SOS)

[doady]

Dundas and Hurontario will both have higher order transit on them. On Dundas the LRT line could start at Cawthra rather than running all the way to Kipling. A regular bus route could handle Cawthra to Kipling. Eventually the Hurontario LRT might need to go underground.

Dundas East is the most important part of Dundas, and now you are proposing it be split in two?

Your proposed subway extension not only fails to serve Dundas East properly, but also fails to serve Cooksville and make any regional connections in MCC. It also fails to serve highly redevelopable areas that either the Hurontario or Dundas LRT wouldn't already have served. And of course it would be no faster than either the BRT or the GO Train. Your proposed subway doesn't enhance either the regional or local transit, and may inf act hamper it...

Isn't one of the major complaints of SOS the arbitrary transfers at Kennedy and Don Mills stations? And now you guys will propose an even more arbitrary transfer at Dundas and Cawthra?

Truly this group has lost its direction...

I think the best thing for Mississauga right now is just Dundas and Hurontario LRTs, and upgrading the Milton GO Train and upgrading the transitway. Any future subway extension would in Mississauga would completely replace the Dundas LRT and serve Cooksville. As I said earlier, I think no extension is needed beyond East Mall for the foreseeable future.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I think the best thing for Mississauga right now is just Dundas and Hurontario LRTs, and upgrading the Milton GO Train and upgrading the transitway. Any future subway extension would in Mississauga would completely replace the Dundas LRT and serve Cooksville. As I said earlier, I think no extension is needed beyond East Mall for the foreseeable future.

I agree. Why can't Dundas and Hurontario Streets be served by an LRT? While I understand SOS is pushing for subway expansion, not everything can (and will) be a subway. In some cases, LRTs or continuing to use buses are the better choices

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree. Why can't Dundas and Hurontario Streets be served by an LRT? While I understand SOS is pushing for subway expansion, not everything can (and will) be a subway. In some cases, LRTs or continuing to use buses are the better choices

I think, generally, if people get locked into too hard a position on anything it starts to water down their message to something that is not taken seriously.

Taking a positions that subways are the only solution is as harmful as someone saying no more subways or something along that line.

As someone who follows this less diligently than others on these boards I have often wondered why there is no subway to MCC while we are building subways to other burbs.....the more I read, however, I am starting to see a picture that, just maybe, subways are not a viable solution to Mississauga (for a variety of reasons) and that other transit options (LRTs combined with vastly improved service on Milton line as an example) make more sense than dogmatically proposing a subway extension.

I am a bit embaressed that it took me so long to realize this....years ago a fellow Bramptonian suggested to me that what Brampton really needed was a huge extension of some subway line to Brampton......I easily, and quickly, dismissed it with "do you know how long a trip that would be? Brampton would be far better served with a Lakeshore Line (or better) level of service on the GO as long as that also included decent connection points to the TTC along the way"....why I saw this for Brampton but not Mississauga is beyond me!

 

[gweed123]

Isn't one of the major complaints of SOS the arbitrary transfers at Kennedy and Don Mills stations? And now you guys will propose an even more arbitrary transfer at Dundas and Cawthra?

Truly this group has lost its direction...

First of all, the map of Mississauga that was posted was NOT part of the SOS plan, in any way shape or form. It was posted on another thread and then brought here just as a point of discussion. Please do not assume that it is being adapted into the SOS plan, because it is not. The subway plan for SOS has been finalized.

And second, this group has not lost its direction. If anything it's more focused than ever. We have our subway plan, our website up, and are in the process of finalizing a report.

 

[EnviroTO]

Dundas East is the most important part of Dundas, and now you are proposing it be split in two?

Yes. Like all the bus routes on Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard, Finch, and Steeles are split at Yonge and every other bus route arriving at the subway terminus, the Dundas LRT could run from Cawthra to Mississauga's western border near Winston Churchill. A bus route could run Kipling to Cawthra, a disadvantage offset by the subway being available for quick service to MCC, Sherway Gardens, Kipling GO, and Bloor St in Toronto.

Your proposed subway extension not only fails to serve Dundas East properly, but also fails to serve Cooksville and make any regional connections in MCC.

It doesn't need to serve Cooksville because the Hurontario LRT already does that and it serves the Kipling GO and obviously with the subway stations along Burnhamthorpe the transit terminal will either be relocated to Hurontario or Living Arts/Confederation. The station at Hurontario could be made accessible by transit only lanes on Hurontario which also carry the LRT and the station at Confederation accessed via bus lanes on Living Arts. Eventually, as Burhamthorpe develops west of downtown Mississauga the subway could be extended to Erindale GO where it would provide a western anchor for transit access into central Mississauga with 403 busway, GO train, and subway access.

It also fails to serve highly redevelopable areas that either the Hurontario or Dundas LRT wouldn't already have served. And of course it would be no faster than either the BRT or the GO Train. Your proposed subway doesn't enhance either the regional or local transit, and may inf act hamper it...

It serves Dundas East from Cawthra to Jarrow which is certainly the majority of the developable land on Dundas East (initial stations at Cawtra and Dixie and potential stations at Tomken and Jarrow). It runs west on Burnhamthorpe and the most developable land on Burnhamthorpe is in the City Centre and west of there between MCC and Erindale on the south side... where an extension of the proposed route would occur (initial stations at Hurontario and Confederation and potential stations midway between Kariya and Duke of York, Mavis, Wolfedale, Erindale Station (which should be renamed), and Erindale GO). All other Mississauga subway proposals also split Dundas at the point the subway no longer runs on Dundas (none would propose running a subway to Winston Churchill nor missing Sherway) and duplicate service on Hurontario.

Isn't one of the major complaints of SOS the arbitrary transfers at Kennedy and Don Mills stations? And now you guys will propose an even more arbitrary transfer at Dundas and Cawthra?

At some point people will transfer to the subway. The LRT on Dundas can make the arbitrary transfer at Cawthra or Kipling. Those riders are better served if that transfer point is closer to their point of origin.

I think the best thing for Mississauga right now is just Dundas and Hurontario LRTs, and upgrading the Milton GO Train and upgrading the transitway. Any future subway extension would in Mississauga would completely replace the Dundas LRT and serve Cooksville.

That is impossible. You can't completely replace the Dundas LRT while serving both the Sherway Gardens area and Cooksville since both Sherway Gardens and Cooksville are not on Dundas. To go to Sherway you must miss the east end of Dundas and to go to Cooksville at Hurontario you must miss Dundas west of Jaguar Valley.

 

[Fresh Start]

At some point people will transfer to the subway. The LRT on Dundas can make the arbitrary transfer at Cawthra or Kipling. Those riders are better served if that transfer point is closer to their point of origin.

That is impossible. You can't completely replace the Dundas LRT while serving both the Sherway Gardens area and Cooksville since both Sherway Gardens and Cooksville are not on Dundas. To go to Sherway you must miss the east end of Dundas and to go to Cooksville at Hurontario you must miss Dundas west of Jaguar Valley.

True on both counts, which is precisely why a subway to MCC does not make any sense. You cannot target as many nodes with the subway as is possible with LRT for both costing and logistical reasons (curvature, box/tunnel size, substations). For Torontonians, there is no better spot on the border than Queensway/West Mall with which to place a stop. West Mall/Dundas is nowhere's ville and Markland Wood has zero redevelopment potential. The subway naturally belongs down there. What could be done however is to place a high-speed limited-stopping LRT line alongside the same stretch of the Milton sub, starting from where the subway ends (either at Sherway Gdns or Dixie GO Stn) and continuing onwards to a potential Hurontario LRT tunnel. Stations en route could be at Haines (access to Dundas proper would be via the Chinese Cultural Centre and the 51 Tomken bus) and Hensall St (where 8 Cawthra buses could loop into the station a la Lawrence East RT Stn). At Cooksville GO Stn we could actually have 2 LRT stations, upper-level for straight north-south Hurontario trips and the lower-level for the direct MCC-TTC subway commute. The two platforms are necessary because of the angle at which trains would turn onto Hurontario from the rail corridor, such that the northern exits could extend to midway between Fairview and the GO line. While the N-S line has exits onto Hillcrest.

This may sound overly complicated but ultimately it would provide the people of Mississauga with more access points to mass transit than a 1.5-2.0 kilometre apart spaced subway extension that will cost much more. Even following your suggestion Enviro of cutting through the Mississauga Valley area may not be easy to achieve politically (NIMBYism) and could still cost as much as burrowing under a street like Hurontario.

Investing money into a Hurontario LRT subway in fact does away with the signifcance of CCTT as a transit hub. Here's why:

• Lakeshore Stn- 23, new 14 Lorne Pk
• Port Credit Stn- direct under the track access to the GO line
• Mineola Stn- 8 Cawthra (could turnback there via looping Pinewood and Broadmoor)
• Harborn Stn- 4, 28, 38
• Paisley Stn- see above
• Dundas Stn- 1, 1C, 101, 201 or LRT. 44 Mississauga could be extended.
• Cooksville Stn- 61, 62... 5, 8, 51 via rail corridor spur
• Central Pkwy Stn- 62, 3
• Burnhamthrope Stn- 26 (extends south to Matthews Gt & west to Kariya Gt)
• Robert Speck Stn- 53, 76 (n/b only on regular route)
• MCC Stn- 6, 26, 28, 61 (s/b only on regular route)
• SQ1 Stn- 9, 18, 20, 65, 66, 110, GO Transit
• Kingsbridge terminal- 7, 10, 19A/B, 34, 35, 68, 89

With most bus routes intercepting one or several stations along its way, the significance of CCTT goes down. What I'm suggesting here basically would be a subway in a fully grade-separated ROW throughout the built up area of southern Mississauga. Only diff its a LRT or ICTS-type vehicle (btw could those run down the median of Hwy 10 north of Eglinton, or are they considered too wide?) The third track on which the Dundas spur routes once in the Hurontario tunnel could preform the opposite loop of the N-S routing (i.e. instead of targeting Robert Speck first then Duke of York, it does the reverse clockwise loop then back south to the HRT subway. Thoughts?

 

[Second_in_pie]

I think, generally, if people get locked into too hard a position on anything it starts to water down their message to something that is not taken seriously.

Taking a positions that subways are the only solution is as harmful as someone saying no more subways or something along that line.

As someone who follows this less diligently than others on these boards I have often wondered why there is no subway to MCC while we are building subways to other burbs.....the more I read, however, I am starting to see a picture that, just maybe, subways are not a viable solution to Mississauga (for a variety of reasons) and that other transit options (LRTs combined with vastly improved service on Milton line as an example) make more sense than dogmatically proposing a subway extension.

I am a bit embaressed that it took me so long to realize this....years ago a fellow Bramptonian suggested to me that what Brampton really needed was a huge extension of some subway line to Brampton......I easily, and quickly, dismissed it with "do you know how long a trip that would be? Brampton would be far better served with a Lakeshore Line (or better) level of service on the GO as long as that also included decent connection points to the TTC along the way"....why I saw this for Brampton but not Mississauga is beyond me!

I agree with all these points, and that's pretty much the same reason I don't like the idea of a subway to Mississauga over the Milton line.
I still think that Hurontario needs something better than LRT, but maybe it could just be an underground LRT from Port Credit to Eglinton, then regular LRT north to Brampton. Either that, or a subway from Port Credit to Eglinton, then future expansions up to Brampton.

I'm sure that the underground LRT option is a lot easier to take, but I think there are a number of things people could be missing out. Hurontario is an amazingly important transportation corridor for Peel, a region of over a million people. Hurontario is the only real viable higher-order transportation corridor for 10 km, and the only viable transportation corridor for this region of over a million. The nothingness portion between Eglinton and Steeles could easily be elevated, saving big bucks, and that leaves about 13 km of real tunneling. The whole line would be about 20 km, comparable in size to the Yonge Subway. I don't think it's unreasonable. I'd be fine with LRT, but I think that subway's really viable in this corridor.

Just putting my two cents out there...

 

[Fresh Start]

I agree with all these points, and that's pretty much the same reason I don't like the idea of a subway to Mississauga over the Milton line.
I still think that Hurontario needs something better than LRT, but maybe it could just be an underground LRT from Port Credit to Eglinton, then regular LRT north to Brampton. Either that, or a subway from Port Credit to Eglinton, then future expansions up to Brampton.

Isn't this a paraphrasing of what I just said? Anyway the point remains, Hurontario is Mississauga's Yonge St and it should be given priority first before these HRT subway schemes of grandeur are to be taken seriously. No sense in asking for the golden goose when things like fare-integration with GO Transit and grade-separated ROW LRT are very much possibilities in this case.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Isn't this a paraphrasing of what I just said? Anyway the point remains, Hurontario is Mississauga's Yonge St and it should be given priority first before these HRT subway schemes of grandeur are to be taken seriously. No sense in asking for the golden goose when things like fare-integration with GO Transit and grade-separated ROW LRT are very much possibilities in this case.

Oh sorry, I didn't see your post. I mostly agree with your post as well. But I'm wondering about the economics of extending RT up to Brampton instead of using LRT. Either way, all of southern Mississauga should be underground or otherwise totally grade separated.

 

[kEiThZ]

Can we save the thread for SOS related discussions, please?

There is no need to rehash arguments about Mississauga subway alignments here. There are other threads for that.

The only part that's relevant as far as SOS is concerned is that Mississauga be included in the subway extension plans. Beyond that, we scarcely have much to add.

The bulk of our effort is going towards presenting an alternative to Transit City and as such is mostly focused on the 416. Any subway to Mississauga would largely be a Mississauga led project with them dictating the routing, not the TTC. So we'll differ to Mississauga on this point.

 

[TOareaFan]

Oh sorry, I didn't see your post. I mostly agree with your post as well. But I'm wondering about the economics of extending RT up to Brampton instead of using LRT. Either way, all of southern Mississauga should be underground or otherwise totally grade separated.

This is gonna sound like a biased Bramptonian but, hey, what the heck.

It would be a real shame to not extend any rapid transit fully to, at least, downtown Brampton. As important as Hurontario is to Mississauga, it is equally important to Brampton...in fact we recognize its importance by changing its name to Main Street

By taking it to DT B-Town it would make the line connect with all three westward GO lines....not sure how many other transit options can say that and, then, in addition to serving the people and businesses in Peel could become the first real suburban transit line that delivered travel flexibitlity/options to people.

If the frequencies on the GO lines are expanded to what we could expect it might actually make sense for someone in, say, Georgetown to GO train to DT Brampton....take this new rapid transit line to Port Credit and then hop on a Lakeshore train to, say, Oakville.......just an example of a trip that might (might being the operative word) make sense on transit that only makes sense by car now.......expanding not only the use of the line but of the GO lines it connects to and starting the process of weaning us of of, both, cars and the "everything goes to Union" system we have now.

Whether it goes north of DT Brampton or not would totally depend on what kind of Development Brampton can spur up there and whether the costs justify it.....but stopping it anywhere other than DT Brampton just seems like a wasted opportunity to me.....of course that would also mean additional cost because the stretch from the Old Brampton Mall (if not Steeles) north would most likely have to be underground.

 

[TOareaFan]

Can we save the thread for SOS related discussions, please?

There is no need to rehash arguments about Mississauga subway alignments here. There are other threads for that.

The only part that's relevant as far as SOS is concerned is that Mississauga be included in the subway extension plans. Beyond that, we scarcely have much to add.

The bulk of our effort is going towards presenting an alternative to Transit City and as such is mostly focused on the 416. Any subway to Mississauga would largely be a Mississauga led project with them dictating the routing, not the TTC. So we'll differ to Mississauga on this point.

sorry...did not ignore you with my previous post but must have been typing it concurrently.

 

[andrewpmk]

This is gonna sound like a biased Bramptonian but, hey, what the heck.

It would be a real shame to not extend any rapid transit fully to, at least, downtown Brampton. As important as Hurontario is to Mississauga, it is equally important to Brampton...in fact we recognize its importance by changing its name to Main Street

I find it hard to believe that anything more than the combination of Hurontario/Main LRT + the Georgetown GO line + a potential LRT line along Queen is needed to serve Downtown Brampton in the near future. A subway line will not be needed until 2040 at the earliest.

 

[TOareaFan]

I find it hard to believe that anything more than the combination of Hurontario/Main LRT + the Georgetown GO line + a potential LRT line along Queen is needed to serve Downtown Brampton in the near future. A subway line will not be needed until 2040 at the earliest.

My post did not say (nor mean to suggest) that I wanted a subway to Brampton....I honestly believe the mode of any higher order transit on 10/Hurontario/Main should be determined by whatever the Mississauga stretch of the route needs/demands......whatever that is, though, it would be a real shame if it was not continued as one continuous line/route into downtown Brampton.

 

[gweed123]

My post did not say (nor mean to suggest) that I wanted a subway to Brampton....I honestly believe the mode of any higher order transit on 10/Hurontario/Main should be determined by whatever the Mississauga stretch of the route needs/demands......whatever that is, though, it would be a real shame if it was not continued as one continuous line/route into downtown Brampton.

I don't disagree with you at all. However, that is way beyond the realm of the TTC (it is highly unlikely that the TTC would operate a line all the way out to Brampton, through Mississauga), so it would fall to Metrolinx.

City transit planning and regional transit planning are 2 entirely different animals. The only planning SOS has done outside of the City of Toronto have been subway extensions barely into the surrounding regions (2 of which have already been drafted and approved in other plans). And even that implies cooperation between adjacent municipalities.