saveoursubways (SOS)

[gweed123]

There is no way York Region can afford the whole cost of subway north of Steeles.

For TYSSE, they contributed 1/3 of the cost north of Steeles, other 2/3 coming from the province and from the feds. And that was before McGunty decided to start covering municipal 1/3 of the transit capital costs.

So at most, York Region will contribute 1/3 of the Yonge North cost north of Steeles. Or maybe nothing.

Same for TC. I realize that it's the 1/3 funding split, my point was simply that extending the subway north of Steeles will not capitally cost Toronto anything. And that's what we're worried about: the cost to Toronto's capital budget.

 

[kEiThZ]

Same for TC. I realize that it's the 1/3 funding split, my point was simply that extending the subway north of Steeles will not capitally cost Toronto anything. And that's what we're worried about: the cost to Toronto's capital budget.

True enough. We are only playing with what we think TC will cost.

 

[Rainforest]

Same for TC. I realize that it's the 1/3 funding split, my point was simply that extending the subway north of Steeles will not capitally cost Toronto anything. And that's what we're worried about: the cost to Toronto's capital budget.

No part of TC capital costs is being funded by Toronto. It is either 100% Province of Ontario (Eglinton LRT, Finch LRT, SRT), or 2/3 provincial and 1/3 federal (SELRT).

Federal support for any coming projects is quite uncertain. Therefore, the provincial money is what matters most. If they are used for Yonge North, they cannot be used for other projects.

 

[nfitz]

No part of TC capital costs is being funded by Toronto.

Not entirely true; the province backed out on it's promise to pay for the EAs for Jane, Don Mills, etc. That's a capital cost that the city is paying directly for.

 

[Second_in_pie]

There is no way York Region can afford the whole cost of subway north of Steeles.

For TYSSE, they contributed 1/3 of the cost north of Steeles, other 2/3 coming from the province and from the feds. And that was before McGunty decided to start covering municipal 1/3 of the transit capital costs.

So at most, York Region will contribute 1/3 of the Yonge North cost north of Steeles. Or maybe nothing.

And will Toronto be covering the cost of the subway from Finch to Steeles? No.

The thing is that Transit City is a City of Toronto plan. They ask for money for projects, and the province approves it. The Yonge extension north of Steeles was a York plan, and York requested the funding, which is soon to be given. I think that it's unfair and unjust to take funding away from their project to fund a new project.

If in Phase 1, we only build a Pearson-Don Mills subway on Eglinton, Sheppard Extension, Finch LRT, and B-D extension to STC, we'd be cost equal with the current TC plan, maybe even a bit less expensive.
And that's assuming we don't get any more funding. It's very possible that Metrolinx will be able to find ways of getting new funding (probably road tolls/congestion charge and maybe a gas tax,) which means we can just accelerate the plan, like working on a Sheppard West extension, DRL West or North, or B-D to MCC. The province should continue with their current funding, but whatever money Metrolinx is able to make should go to new capital projects and moving the plan forward.

 

[Rainforest]

Not entirely true; the province backed out on it's promise to pay for the EAs for Jane, Don Mills, etc. That's a capital cost that the city is paying directly for.

Thanks, I did not know that.

But anyway, the cost of conducting EA is a small fraction of the cost to actually build the line.

 

[Rainforest]

And will Toronto be covering the cost of the subway from Finch to Steeles? No.

The thing is that Transit City is a City of Toronto plan. They ask for money for projects, and the province approves it. The Yonge extension north of Steeles was a York plan, and York requested the funding, which is soon to be given. I think that it's unfair and unjust to take funding away from their project to fund a new project.

On one hand, it is unfair to take away funding from their project, given that they did a good job of promoting it, unlike Toronto or Mississauga.

But on the other hand, there are greater needs in other parts of the network.

Btw, what makes you think that Yonge North extension will be funded soon? Almost all of MoveOntario 2020 money are allocated already, and the province is not eager to add to its deficit; neither are the feds.

 

[Second_in_pie]

But on the other hand, there are greater needs in other parts of the network./QUOTE]I don't think we should be killing one needed extension for another just because the other's "more needed." The extension to Langstaff will serve thousands of people and will help with high density development that will occur all along the Yonge Corridor through Thornhill and Richmond Hill. Other lines may need funding and could be more useful than the Yonge extension, but I think when it gets to a point like this, more funding is just needed if the government is to be responsible.

Btw, what makes you think that Yonge North extension will be funded soon? Almost all of MoveOntario 2020 money are allocated already, and the province is not eager to add to its deficit; neither are the feds.

I'm not sure if the EA's been done, but I'm sure York/Toronto would be willing to do an EA so when the province is ready, construction can begin as soon as possible. Funding within a "reasonable timeframe" to me is within 6 years, which is more than enough for the Province to sort out it's problems, or for the Province or Metrolinx to find new ways to acquire money for transit improvements.

 

[nfitz]

6 years more than enough to sort out problems? After the last recession in 1990/1992, it took until 1996 until some major projects even get cancelled, as the government tried to sort out it's problems. We are still trying to restore some of those projects almost 20-years after the recession started, and TTC only restored some of the services it had to cancel back then last year.

Given how much more severe this recession is, I think having it all sorted out within 6 years is optimistic!

 

[gweed123]

And will Toronto be covering the cost of the subway from Finch to Steeles? No.

The thing is that Transit City is a City of Toronto plan. They ask for money for projects, and the province approves it. The Yonge extension north of Steeles was a York plan, and York requested the funding, which is soon to be given. I think that it's unfair and unjust to take funding away from their project to fund a new project.

If in Phase 1, we only build a Pearson-Don Mills subway on Eglinton, Sheppard Extension, Finch LRT, and B-D extension to STC, we'd be cost equal with the current TC plan, maybe even a bit less expensive.
And that's assuming we don't get any more funding. It's very possible that Metrolinx will be able to find ways of getting new funding (probably road tolls/congestion charge and maybe a gas tax,) which means we can just accelerate the plan, like working on a Sheppard West extension, DRL West or North, or B-D to MCC. The province should continue with their current funding, but whatever money Metrolinx is able to make should go to new capital projects and moving the plan forward.

What about the DRL? My pecking order is:
1) DRL East
2) B-D extensions
3) Eglinton Central and West
4) Yonge and Spadina extensions
5) Sheppard East
6) DRL West
7) Eglinton East
8) Sheppard West

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Of course, the DRL would be among the top, if not at the top of projects. I just assumed it'd receive funding separate from TC/TYSSE.

 

[nfitz]

Surely Spadina extension has to be at the top; I hope you guys don't think your realistically going to have a chance to stop that as well!

After that, what is the list? I'd think that Sheppard East isn't top of the list (after Spadina)!

 

[kEiThZ]

I would switch 1 and 2 simply because the SRT is on the verge of operational failure.

 

[Fresh Start]

I dunno if we need to be that detailed in our proposals. Your proposal is detail that can be finessed. Our map should be clear. It needs to show a Jane BRT. And it needs to show the Eglinton subway meeting it. Simple as that. Whether that happens at Jane station or a Mount Dennis station is not all that relevant at this stage. I do think it's a good proposal. Just not detail we need to include at this stage though. We're just trying to nail down the corridors and the priority at which they'll get built at this stage.

Yeah I realize that plans can change but to be taken seriously we have to also indicate that we've done our research and analysis of where corridors are in relation to the greater city/region. Three considerations we should make before including a Jane station: topography, stop spacing and costs. If ever there is a better spot to transition to at-grade or above-grade ROW it is around Eglinton Flats Park. The slope is such that a relatively shallow station can exist at Weston Road followed by a curvature to angle towards Scarlett/Eglinton. As stations cannot be built on curves, there's no point in building one at Jane Street, especially with Guestville (the westernmost exit of a hypothetical Mt Dennis Stn being a mere 300m to the east). And for someone at Jane/Wilson seeking a direct one level transfer to the downtown core, why should they have to be subjected to getting off at Jane/Eglinton riding the train for one stop then getting again to transfer onto the DRL?

I might be brainstorming a bit too much but only a few locations like Mount Dennis exist where potentially four mass transit lines can intersect (Eglinton subway, DRL, Jane BRT, GO commuter rail). So best to plan that stop right.

 

[Fresh Start]

I think everyone is overestimating the importance of an Eglinton subway for Mississauga, especially if its going to the Airport. Yeah sure it'll technically be in Mississauga if it's in the airport, but people in Mississauga don't live anywhere near the aiport (minus Malton, and how accessible would the Airport station be for them anyway?)

If you want to appease Mississauga, the extension to MCC is the way to do it. To appease Etobicoke, a subway to Sherway would do it. So to appease the West End, you need only the Bloor extension to MCC, no one in the West End cares about a subway to the airport.

I have to disagree with you. Kipling and worse Sherway are far removed from CCTT, just south of the 403. It'd take more total kms of track to link the subway to MCC. The truth of the matter is that Eglinton is far more direct and would result in a faster/shorter commute time in-between the subway and Square One. How long does the 26 or the 1 via the 19 take to link up the two points, and contrast that to the 7 or more aptly the 89. It should not take more than 15 minutes to get to Toronto from Square One.

Eglinton subway coupled with the Mississauga Transitway would offer a far superior system for less. And with the potential to interline DRL southbound trips along Eglinton West ROW, it would do away with the inherent need for the Bloor Line for most Mississaugans altogether. People want directness and not waste time serving several miscellaneous stops in eastern 'Sauga. We have backtracking on the local bus for that. The realm of subway is high-speed nodal travel, which Eglinton subway accomplishes. That's why sometimes I even wonder is it's necessary to extend the Bloor Line past Dundas-Dixie GO when LRT along it and Hurontario can and will do pretty much the same task.

And Malton (and eastern Brampton) would really benefit a lot from subway stations off of Airport Road. More so than from a Sq 1 subway.