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Sammy Yatim Shooting

freshcutgrass said:
I wish people would quit saying that.

As the Tueller drill clearly proves, you can indeed bring a knife to a gun fight...and win.

The average knife-weilding suspect can cover 14 feet/second. In 2 or 3 seconds, Sammy could have been within striking distance of not only officers, but the people mulling around the streetcar. That's why there is no officer that would have let him make a move for the exit.

Sammy was without a doubt, an immanent threat.
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A grave threat to Forcillo's ego and manhood. The thug deserved to be put down.
 
freshcutgrass said:
I wish people would quit saying that.
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Why, because it was true?

freshcutgrass said:
The average knife-weilding suspect can cover 14 feet/second. In 2 or 3 seconds, Sammy could have been within striking distance of not only officers, but the people mulling around the streetcar. That's why there is no officer that would have let him make a move for the exit.
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There was no indication in the video that he made a move for the exit before Forcillo murdered him.

freshcutgrass said:
Sammy was without a doubt, an immanent threat.
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Bullshit. Clearly you don't know much about this stuff. Just like our police! Perhaps you should apply! Then you too can execute people who call you names!
 
At least a half dozen of the witnesses who were on the streetcar stated that they feared their lives and ran off/escaped. Was he not a 'threat' to them?
 
typezed said:
Not at the moment he was shot. He was then alone on the streetcar.
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So he was no longer dangerous because the people ran off or was it that he was not dangerous since the people were able to run off (as was proposed before). A wife runs away from her abusive husband is he no longer a threat to her???
 
So he was no longer dangerous because the people ran off or was it that he was not dangerous since the people were able to run off
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Some people just think a knife is only dangerous within arms reach or something. And a knife vs a gun = gun wins every time. Neither are true. The Tueller test shows, absolutely and conclusively, that a knife-wielding assailant can kill someone with a handgun if they're within a range of 21 feet (many police forces consider up to 50 feet to be the danger zone).

Sammy was a non-compliant, verbally aggressive man with a deadly weapon, and clearly presented himself as someone who had the potential to cause death or grievous bodily harm to the officers and to members of the public if he had been permitted to leave the street car.

Universally accepted use of force protocols dictate that an appropriate response to such a threat is lethal force. In the video, Sammy is clearly seen making a move towards the front exit as the officer began shooting.

This is why Sammy is dead. Unless you think the more plausible reason is simply that some cop woke up that morning itching to blow someone away.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
So he was no longer dangerous because the people ran off or was it that he was not dangerous since the people were able to run off (as was proposed before). A wife runs away from her abusive husband is he no longer a threat to her???
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Of course a man with a knife acting irrationally is a threat. But he was on an empty streetcar. He at that moment wasn't an immediate threat to knife anyone that necessitated him being shot. Unless you believe as freshcutgrass is trying to say that he could have lunged forward through the narrow angled passageway of the front streetcar entrance, went down three stairs and stabbed two cops standing twenty feet from the streetcar with their guns drawn.

freshcutgrass said:
Unless you think the more plausible reason is simply that some cop woke up that morning itching to blow someone away.
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Or unless you believe that Toronto Police Services has a dysfunctional culture, that cops make wrong decisions all the time and that some are probably unfit for the job.
 
typezed said:
Or unless you believe that Toronto Police Services has a dysfunctional culture, that cops make wrong decisions all the time and that some are probably unfit for the job.
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Naw that's not possible, all police officers are beyond reproach and selfishly act only in the publics best interest at all times. Blowing away a POS criminal, armed with a knife lying prone on the ground who takes more than 6 seconds to comply with a command is simply a part of their job description.

Or at least that's what some people say.
 
Some people just think a knife is only dangerous within arms reach or something. And a knife vs a gun = gun wins every time. Neither are true. The Tueller test shows, absolutely and conclusively, that a knife-wielding assailant can kill someone with a handgun if they're within a range of 21 feet (many police forces consider up to 50 feet to be the danger zone).
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I kind of doubt if the Tueller test results will convince a lot of cops to turn in their guns for a knife or even add a knife to their personal arsenal for use against a gun toting bad guy who appears within 21 to 50 feet. I can't speak for the cops but I know what choice I would make, here's a hint, it goes bang.
 
spider said:
I kind of doubt if the Tueller test results will convince a lot of cops to turn in their guns for a knife or even add a knife to their personal arsenal for use against a gun toting bad guy who appears within 21 to 50 feet.
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Too bad the Tueller drill is completely irrelevant to this situation to begin with. Never mind that they never tested the safe distance needed to counter a target laying on the ground, which would obviously be much farther, but the tests were done with a holstered weapon. And as we all know, officer Forcillo's gun was not holstered.
 
I kind of doubt if the Tueller test results will convince a lot of cops to turn in their guns for a knife or even add a knife to their personal arsenal for use against a gun toting bad guy who appears within 21 to 50 feet. I can't speak for the cops but I know what choice I would make, here's a hint, it goes bang.
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The purpose of the Tueller test is to instruct how close can you let someone armed with a knife get before you can no longer effectively draw and fire your sidearm. It has nothing to do with what weapon to choose, but rather how to maintain your advantage against a knife-weilding assailant.



Too bad the Tueller drill is completely irrelevant to this situation to begin with. Never mind that they never tested the safe distance needed to counter a target laying on the ground, which would obviously be much farther, but the tests were done with a holstered weapon. And as we all know, officer Forcillo's gun was not holstered.
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I have no idea why you would claim police training is irrelevant to this situation. It's is why they are doing what they are doing. It's quite relevant.

We are talking about the initial shots...not whether the 6 second delay constitutes a second use of lethal force.
Having his gun drawn simply improves his odds. It does not mean Sammy was no longer a threat. No one is claiming that this is a reenactment of a Tueller Drill, but uses the knowledge from it to determine actions...it's why he has his gun drawn, not holstered.
 
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