Rob Ford's Transit plan

[Dan416]

You started this debate by saying that neither Miller nor Giambrone proposed the DRL. When the fallacy of this was pointed out, you've avoided the subject with a bargepole, and made other attacks instead. When the complete failure of your argument is pointed out, you resort to simply insults.

They haven't proposed it. They've voiced support for it. But that's not the same as proposing it. The idea has been around for decades. Anyone can say they support it. It's another thing to actually propose it gets done. If they had proposed it, we wouldn't be in this mess we are now with a bunch of useless transit projects going up before the DRL. I'd say the majority here agree the DRL is the top priority for transit in the city. Yet Miller and Giambrone failed to get it started or funded, when they had all the time in the world, and government funding to do whatever they proposed. Just because you say a thing does not make it true, and the fact that the DRL is NOT being built right now (and isn't even close) proves that Miller and Giambrone did not "propose" the DRL.

 

[nfitz]

They haven't proposed it. They've voiced support for it. But that's not the same as proposing it.

What do you mean they haven't proposed it. They've not only done that, they've started the pre-study and hired the consultant to do that, and to do the environmental assessment!

Why are you saying these things that are not true!

 

[Dan416]

What do you mean they haven't proposed it. They've not only done that, they've started the pre-study and hired the consultant to do that, and to do the environmental assessment!

Why are you saying these things that are not true!

Last I checked, the DRL EA hasn't even started yet, unless you know something I don't.

 

[nfitz]

Last I checked, the DRL EA hasn't even started yet, unless you know something I don't.

Neither has the Don Mills LRT or the Jane LRT. However the pre-study has begun and should be complete by early 2011. And the DRTES project includes performing the EA for the DRL if that is the recommendation that is made.

 

[EnviroTO]

They haven't proposed it. They've voiced support for it. But that's not the same as proposing it. The idea has been around for decades.

So nobody except the first person that proposed it way back when is a good candidate because the best they can do is to support it. I'm pretty sure the city pushed to have the DRL made a higher priority on the Big Move stating that if the Yonge extension was to be made to Richmond Hill that at minimum Yonge-Bloor station would need to be rebuilt prior to opening and the DRL would need to start construction soon after. They have also already been studying the connection from Don Mills and Eglinton to downtown. So definitely it would be incorrect to state the current administration doesn't support the DRL. They might not have prioritized it higher than some of the transit city routes but they definitely see the value and support it.

 

[Dan416]

So nobody except the first person that proposed it way back when is a good candidate because the best they can do is to support it. I'm pretty sure the city pushed to have the DRL made a higher priority on the Big Move stating that if the Yonge extension was to be made to Richmond Hill that at minimum Yonge-Bloor station would need to be rebuilt prior to opening and the DRL would need to start construction soon after. They have also already been studying the connection from Don Mills and Eglinton to downtown. So definitely it would be incorrect to state the current administration doesn't support the DRL. They might not have prioritized it higher than some of the transit city routes but they definitely see the value and support it.

I never said they didn't "support" it. But they were in power. It was their responsibility to push it through. Instead, they pushed Transit City through. DRL is an afterthought, and it's only brought up now that studies are underway for the Yonge Subway extension north.

 

[Chuck]

He is, absolutely right (BTW).....for those who have not been to BMO for a TFC match, it really is impressive how many people arrive at the stadium/area via those modes of public transit.....it really proves his point that delivering people to high volume events does not necessarily mean subways. ....a good mix of streetcars/trains/buses can do the job..

You're kidding, right? One can only be jealous of the suburbanites who enjoy heavy rail service to the Ex grounds. The rest of us city dwellers typically face a lengthy wait for a streetcar, only to be packed like sardines into an unairconditioned streetcar that averages 8 km/hr the entire way to Union or Bathurst. The way there is even worse - before a TFC game, it easily takes 30 minutes on average from the time you arrive at Union till the time you step off at Exhibition. One leaving Oakville GO would arrive at the same time. Anyone who attends large events served only by streetcars (the Ex, Ashbridge's Bay fireworks, TFC games, etc) can tell you that streetcars do a piss poor job at handling the crowds.

I'll counter your argument, and say that the only flaw with BMO field is that it relies on the very streetcars which you applaud. Travel between the Ex and Union should be free on regularly scheduled GO trains which pass by. Toronto has matured and densified to the point where the downtown area cannot be adequately served by streetcars. Don't replace a single line with buses; instead, replace a few with subway lines so that travel by streetcar can be avoided entirely if one opts to do so.

 

[nfitz]

You're kidding, right? One can only be jealous of the suburbanites who enjoy heavy rail service to the Ex grounds. The rest of us city dwellers typically face a lengthy wait for a streetcar, only to be packed like sardines into an unairconditioned streetcar that averages 8 km/hr the entire way to Union or Bathurst.
The way there is even worse - before a TFC game, it easily takes 30 minutes on average from the time you arrive at Union till the time you step off at Exhibition.

Why take the streetcar from Union? Today's kick-off is 4 pm. The 3:43 GO from Union arrives at Exhibition at 3:49. That's quicker than waiting in line for the 509 at Union.

And from Bloor, the Ossington bus is faster that the Bathurst streetcar - mostly because the route is shorter. And the Bathurst streetcar does have a problem sometimes making a right-hand turn from Bathurst to Fleet, as it get's stuck behind the left-turning cars (there's a solution there ...)

Anyone who attends large events served only by streetcars (the Ex, Ashbridge's Bay fireworks, TFC games, etc) can tell you that streetcars do a piss poor job at handling the crowds.

I often attend TFC games, and I think the streetcars do a fine job at the end of the game. TTC is very good at stockpiling cars at Exhibition, and they leave and depart as fast as they load; often the bottleneck is the front-door loading, there is a solution there as well. I'm quite impresses on how well they remove all the passengers from the station. Though the new 4-door streetcars with all-door loading will improve that further.

 

[picard102]

I went to the CNE from Union via Streetcar and I couldn't be happier about the entire trip. Very easy, fast and convenient.

 

[nfitz]

I went to the CNE from Union via Streetcar and I couldn't be happier about the entire trip. Very easy, fast and convenient.

It depends on time-of-day. If there's no huge line-up at Union, it can work quite well. But when the line-up at Union is flowing off the platform, down the tunnel, up the stairs, and into the subway station; which it can do on a busy Saturday afternoon at game time ... it's not a great option.

The planned upgrade of the streetcar platform, and longer streetcars should help that.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm hoping for a subway DRL, a subway extension to SCC of the Danforth line (but not following the current SRT route), Sheppard LRT from Downsview to SCC, and Eglinton LRT from Pearson to Kennedy (via 27 and Dixon, not Commerce).

... For the Sheppard LRT I think changing the tunnel to LRT still has potential to happen if Eglinton proves successful, so I have no problem with what they are doing there either besides the fact that they aren't creating a branch to the SCC.

It should be noted that the cost of subway-to-LRT conversion on Sheppard has been estimated to about $670 million. Furthermore, if the resulting LRT is extended west of Yonge to Downsview, part of it (Yonge to the river) will have to be tunnelled as the street is not wide enough for 6 lanes. The existing subway tunnel reaches about 400 m west of Yonge, but additional 1 km of tunnel will be needed. So, the cost of LRT to Downsview will be in the $500 million range.

The combined cost of converting Sheppard subway to LRT and extending it to Downsview will, therefore, be about same as the cost of just extending the subway to Downsview.

If so, than the subway option is preferable. Its disadvantage is the retention of transfer at Don Mills, but this would be offset by multiple advantages:
1) No disruption to the existing section during construction.
2) More convenient for people who arrive to Don Mills Stn by buses. A number of buses will terminate there even after SELRT is built. If the subway is retained, riders of those buses have a much better chance of getting a seat.
3) A subway shortcut between the Wilson yard and the Yonge line, for moves from / to the carhouse.
4) High capacity of the link between the Yonge and US lines. That extra capacity might be redundant during the normal operation, but will come very handy when a section of either Y or US is blocked due to an emergency.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

QFT aka quoted for truth

+1

 

[Paleo]

Actually, you guys are wrong. THE DRL was proposed back in the early 1900s' and everybody since then (except for Jack Layton and Mel Lastman) have merely been voicing their support for it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Rob Ford does not want bicycle lanes on the roads of Toronto, only on separated off roads paths.

From this link to sootoday.com comes this report:

By SooToday.com Staff
SooToday.com
Tuesday, August 10, 2010

NEWS RELEASE

CAROL HUGHES, MP

*************************
Lobbying for bike lanes pays off

One-metre bike lanes will soon be a reality on Manitoulin Island and the Bruce Peninsula.

The provincial government’s announcement last week that one-metre bike lanes will now be included in the Ministry of Transportation’s plans to resurface Highway 6 from South Baymouth to Little Current on Manitoulin Island, and from Tobermory to Mar is welcome news.

 

[Dan416]

Actually, you guys are wrong. THE DRL was proposed back in the early 1900s' and everybody since then (except for Jack Layton and Mel Lastman) have merely been voicing their support for it.

That's exactly what I said