Rob Ford's Toronto

[OSS 117]

Okay, now I'm starting to see what your saying and where you're coming from.

For the record, I'm still not convinced that OSS 117 was trying to be classist or racist with his comments. I really feel that you really are connecting far too many dots. It was a dumb comment and nothing more.

But I fully agree with everything else you said. As with anything in politics, there are definitely demographic patterns that do make voters more likely to vote for a certain person. These absolutely cannot be ignored. And as you said, to believe that people voted for Ford out of plain ignorance or spite is ignorant in itself. Most voters do have logic behind who they selected. To dismiss this logic would be to shoot yourself in the foot.

Most voters voting patterns are ingrained. There is always a certain percentage who will vote for the most conservative candidate. Ford played on that, and the other side suffered from weak campaigns and splitting the vote. In just about any other campaign I would say "fair enough", but Ford was such obviously bad news that it just makes you wonder what people were thinking. Nowadays, you don't wonder, you know what they're thinking, and it doesn't reflect well on them.

 

[evvabeing]

And actually, amidst all of this Etobicoke Babylon, there's another name I haven't seen come up through the recent tales of Basso, Bellissimo, the Ford'n'Price hash'n'kidnapping, but which came to mind back w/the key-to-the-city presentation some months ago: Chuvalo. The fact that the Ford and Chuvalo families were in some way "close", presumably through the patriarchs' good-Etobicoke-citizen good will--but given the harrowing fate of all but one of the Chuvalo boys, I. still. just. can't. help. thinking. there was some deeper drug-and-vice-world connection among the respective offspring...

i wish we knew more about who david profitt was. (he spoke to the star when he was visiting the bassos on his way to the airport)

 

[OSS 117]

What a hopelessly naive argument - although calling it "an argument" is being generous. Apparently, in the world you live in, voters are only allowed to express their interests through voting after having researched a political entity's budgeting process, capital investment, financial situation, and the intricacies of transit planning. You also seem to believe that each of the 383,501 people who voted for Rob Ford couldn't possibly have done so b/c they valued small government, what Ford calls "fiscal conservatism", or simply identified with the guy. If that's not classist, I don't know what is. You're essentially saying that only the people with the time, wherewithal, education and privilege to make truly informed decisions about policy are the responsible voters. The others - those who should be served by both the press and the politicians who should be able to make clear which policies are and are not in a populace's interests - be damned.

So basically, forget the structural, social flaws and pathetic opponents that enabled Ford to get elected, but screw ordinary people who were hoodwinked by the idiot Ford twins, Kouvalis, Towhey & Co. Despicable.

Jesus Christ, YES!!!! People who vote should do some research. At least read a paper or two that folds in the middle. If that's classist, I'm happily classist. Anyone who votes based on nothing more than what a politician says in a sound bite is being a little lax.

 

[evvabeing]

And actually, amidst all of this Etobicoke Babylon, there's another name I haven't seen come up through the recent tales of Basso, Bellissimo, the Ford'n'Price hash'n'kidnapping, but which came to mind back w/the key-to-the-city presentation some months ago: Chuvalo. The fact that the Ford and Chuvalo families were in some way "close", presumably through the patriarchs' good-Etobicoke-citizen good will--but given the harrowing fate of all but one of the Chuvalo boys, I. still. just. can't. help. thinking. there was some deeper drug-and-vice-world connection among the respective offspring...

plus there's this...

"He said all he knew about Rob Ford, a west-end guy just like him, whose older brother, Randy, was childhood pals with some of Chuvalo’s sons, was that he came from a good family and was a good person."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...ughest-battle-was-losing-his-family-to-drugs/

and this...

"The two families, through a Chuvalo son and a Ford brother, are old friends. The mayor said so. He was clearly proud to be paying tribute to Chuvalo."

http://o.canada.com/2013/03/26/toronto-star-plays-dirty-with-the-latest-in-the-rob-ford-storyline/

 

[OSS 117]

What a hopelessly naive argument - although calling it "an argument" is being generous. Apparently, in the world you live in, voters are only allowed to express their interests through voting after having researched a political entity's budgeting process, capital investment, financial situation, and the intricacies of transit planning. You also seem to believe that each of the 383,501 people who voted for Rob Ford couldn't possibly have done so b/c they valued small government, what Ford calls "fiscal conservatism", or simply identified with the guy. If that's not classist, I don't know what is. You're essentially saying that only the people with the time, wherewithal, education and privilege to make truly informed decisions about policy are the responsible voters. The others - those who should be served by both the press and the politicians who should be able to make clear which policies are and are not in a populace's interests - be damned.

So basically, forget the structural, social flaws and pathetic opponents that enabled Ford to get elected, but screw ordinary people who were hoodwinked by the idiot Ford twins, Kouvalis, Towhey & Co. Despicable.

This "Blame them not, for they know not what they do" stuff is pretty weak, and pretty condescending to the people you think you're sticking up for. We're both saying they were hoodwinked, but you seem to think the voters are so easily manipulated that they bear no responsibility for what they did. And I don't think many of the people who voted for Ford and still support him would find your assessment of their intellects very flattering. When I say that a lot of them knew what they were doing, I'm at least giving people credit for being able to make their own decisions, whether I agree with them or not.

 

[somuchwater]

Jesus Christ, YES!!!! People who vote should do some research. At least read a paper or two that folds in the middle. If that's classist, I'm happily classist. Anyone who votes based on nothing more than what a politician says in a sound bite are being a little lax.

Oh of course they should! But you're saying that nearly 400,000 people - which is nearly, what, 1/4 of eligible voters in the city - were just stupid, ignorant or spiteful. That's a bang-up piece of sociological analysis. You remind me of those people who say things like "why don't schools just grammar" or "if you get AIDS, it's your own fault" - they're ideas that are only true in the abstract, but have nothing to do with how life or politics play out on a day-to-day level.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

@OSS 117:

Confrontational, divisive and unparliamentary politics is what got Ford elected in the first place. What you've been doing in the last few posts in isn't very different.

 

[OSS 117]

@OSS 117:

Confrontational, divisive and unparliamentary politics is what got Ford elected in the first place. What you've been doing in the last few posts in isn't very different.

Ugh. Fine. I'll drop it.

 

[Lansdude]

Oh of course they should! But you're saying that nearly 400,000 people - which is nearly, what, 1/4 of eligible voters in the city - were just stupid, ignorant or spiteful. That's a bang-up piece of sociological analysis. You remind me of those people who say things like "why don't schools just grammar" or "if you get AIDS, it's your own fault" - they're ideas that are only true in the abstract, but have nothing to do with how life or politics play out on a day-to-day level.

Unfortunate for them and us, but perhaps they are stupid, ignorant, and spiteful, regardless of how they became that way and the moral implications of whatever ironically liberal deterministic argument you're making here.

 

[somuchwater]

This "Blame them not, for they know not what they do" stuff is pretty weak, and pretty condescending to the people you think you're sticking up for. We're both saying they were hoodwinked, but you seem to think the voters are so easily manipulated that they bear no responsibility for what they did. And I don't think many of the people who voted for Ford and still support him would find your assessment of their intellects very flattering. When I say that a lot of them knew what they were doing, I'm at least giving people credit for being able to make their own decisions, whether I agree with them or not.

We should stop this, but I think the dichotomy you're setting up - totally hapless and subject to the whims of power OR being able to make your own informed decisions - is needlessly binary and also misleading. I'm suggesting that one look at Ford's election as a moment in history in which a number of forces were at play, many of which included dimensions of race and class that are entirely glossed over by basic, overly simplistic characterizations that suggest a huge, diverse, heterogenous block of voters were simply dumb. It's understandable why you might want to say that on a message board as a kind of catharsis, but it helps precisely nothing, and as I've said earlier, can't actually be supported by any empirical evidence.

 

[Roy G Biv]

We should stop this, but I think the dichotomy you're setting up - totally hapless and subject to the whims of power OR being able to make your own informed decisions - is needlessly binary and also misleading. I'm suggesting that one look at Ford's election as a moment in history in which a number of forces were at play, many of which included dimensions of race and class that are entirely glossed over by basic, overly simplistic characterizations that suggest a huge, diverse, heterogenous block of voters were simply dumb. It's understandable why you might want to say that on a message board as a kind of catharsis, but it helps precisely nothing, and as I've said earlier, can't actually be supported by any empirical evidence.

They were not a homogeneous block of voters; you are correct. And they were not all dumb... until they cast a vote for Ford, which was a defining act of dumbness.. I've spoken with several "informed" citizens who voted for Ford because he was a small government conservative. However, they all thought he would be more pragmatic and less boorish once he ascended to the throne. The realists out there looked at his past behaviour as an indicator of what to expect with Ford as mayor. Populists don't make sound decisions on policy and abrasive mayors cannot unite council. We just saw it with Larry O'Brien in Ottawa. I'm not saying the alternatives were great choices, but at least they were not shoe-ins to embarrass the city.

 

[LowPolygon]

...overly simplistic characterizations that suggest a huge, diverse, heterogenous block of voters were simply dumb. It's understandable why you might want to say that on a message board as a kind of catharsis, but it helps precisely nothing, and as I've said earlier, can't actually be supported by any empirical evidence.

Low-Effort Thought Promotes Political Conservatism

http://2012election.procon.org/sour...ught-promotes-political-conservatism-2012.pdf

Conservatism Thrives on Low Intelligence and Poor Information

http://www.alternet.org/story/154082/conservatism_thrives_on_low_intelligence_and_poor_information

Study links low intelligence with right-wing beliefs

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...igence-with-right-wing-beliefs/article543361/

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice

http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

Bright minds and dark attitudes: lower cognitive ability predicts greater prejudice through right-wing ideology and low intergroup contact.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22222219

Study: Are Liberals Smarter Than Conservatives?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1968042,00.html

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Talk about a taboo... Draw your own conclusions. I'm going to grab the popcorn.

 

[MetroMan]

i'm extra pleased that this is from the sun...

Mayor Rob Ford doesn't do himself any favours

"It’s a pity for him and his reputation that he chooses to so often let himself go by abusing fellow fans at a hockey game, reading while driving, blowing up in council and being consistently late for events.

That is looking like a pattern of behaviour that does neither him nor his supporters any favours at all."

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/12/mayor-rob-ford-doesnt-do-himself-any-favours

The Sun has been increasingly critical and methodically escalating their negativity towards him in a transition from We Love Rob Ford to We Hate Rob Ford and so should you. It was no coincidence that his biggest cheerleader, Sue Ann Levy was moved off the City Hall beat. This fits with what we've been hearing about the Conservative machine searching for a candidate to run in 2014, all but ignoring Rob Ford and hoping that their new guy wins and we all just forget about the time bomb they helped become Mayor.

 

[TOvp]

Talk about a taboo... Draw your own conclusions. I'm going to grab the popcorn.

At this stage of the game I wouldn't be surprised if "I'm My Own Grandpa" was the Ford family song and motto.

Is this worth staying up for or should we get some sleep to avoid doing Rob Ford on the Danforth impersonations meeting with clients?