TOvp
Active Member
Metroman spotting is worth some missed sleep!
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Rob Ford's Toronto
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CowboyLogic
Active Member
First of all, several of those links all refer to a single study. I'm not sure if you're attempting to mislead people or if you're exhibiting "low-effort thought", but I'm calling you out on it.
I always find it funny when supposed "intelligent" people post studies proclaiming their opposition to be "dumb", as invariably these studies use horribly flawed methodology and have extreme biases.
If you want to see just how useless one of the studies you linked to (twice!) is, you can read in-depth about it here: http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=5118. To make a long story short, that study is essentially garbage.
Regardless, even if conservatives are as a whole less intelligent, why bring that up? It always seems to be the people crowing about how the other side is stupid who seem to actively avoid actually discussing issues or engage in critical thinking and debate. If, on a whole, conservatives are dumber, that really doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you right about these issues, it doesn't even mean you're smart - in fact, it doesn't even mean liberal policies are necessairly better than conservative ones. You're attempting to discredit an ideology to avoid actually having to deal directly with the implications and nuances of said ideology.
typezed
Active Member
It is probably unhelpful to label half the voting population spiteful or stupid. If we want to criticize people we should probably focus on his handlers and enablers and apologists: Kouvalis, Towhey, Batra, Jerry Agar, Susan Levy, John Tory, Stephen LeDrew, Doug Holyday, Michael Thompson, CFRB, The Sun, The Post, CITYTV, CTV, even the Globe, which sticks to playing both sides with Ford. These are just some of the people and organizations that assisted in making an irresponsible, inarticulate, alcoholic man-child who skips work to hang out with his criminal drug-abusing high school buddies the viable conservative candidate to lead the largest city in the country. Most of these people surely knew he was unfit for the job. Are they driven by spite, stupidity, or something else? Why are they working to polarize the city?
You could also blame the progressive wing, which gave us two competing unremarkable choices - a high school dropout with his own drug history and baggage from the provincial government and a faithful NDP man who refused to acknowledge any of the financial challenges the city faced. You can continue to blame the progressive wing, who show few signs of getting their act together for the next election and who continue to get lost chasing optics and fads and personal interests. We can laugh at Ford's cluelessness when he pushed forward the Scarborough subway last month, but all that happened not because of Ford, but due to deBaeremaker, Stintz and Mihevic pushing their own political agendas.
Now if the public sees that a politician was driving under the influence and choosing to engage the public while stumbling stupid drunk and continues to support him because they think that makes him an 'average guy' or 'accessible' or if they push lies and denials aimed to deflect criticism of clearly unacceptable behaviour then they are spiteful or stupid. And they hurt the future potential of the city. Because what smart, successful, hard-working, innovative candidate wants to put his or her name up for consideration in a market that is so unaware or mean-spirited that they choose to be represented by the likes of Rob Ford?
You could also blame the progressive wing, which gave us two competing unremarkable choices - a high school dropout with his own drug history and baggage from the provincial government and a faithful NDP man who refused to acknowledge any of the financial challenges the city faced. You can continue to blame the progressive wing, who show few signs of getting their act together for the next election and who continue to get lost chasing optics and fads and personal interests. We can laugh at Ford's cluelessness when he pushed forward the Scarborough subway last month, but all that happened not because of Ford, but due to deBaeremaker, Stintz and Mihevic pushing their own political agendas.
Now if the public sees that a politician was driving under the influence and choosing to engage the public while stumbling stupid drunk and continues to support him because they think that makes him an 'average guy' or 'accessible' or if they push lies and denials aimed to deflect criticism of clearly unacceptable behaviour then they are spiteful or stupid. And they hurt the future potential of the city. Because what smart, successful, hard-working, innovative candidate wants to put his or her name up for consideration in a market that is so unaware or mean-spirited that they choose to be represented by the likes of Rob Ford?
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Sigh...
At the end of the day, we all know one thing. Everyone is dumb. Except me. This is the platform I shall deliver to voters when I run for mayor (eventually...).
At the end of the day, we all know one thing. Everyone is dumb. Except me. This is the platform I shall deliver to voters when I run for mayor (eventually...).
ttk77
Senior Member
Population studies like that always have far too many possible confounding variables to be taken with anything less than a very large grain of salt, and yes, calling a sizeable part of the population stupid is not going to help the cause, whether or not it's true. While I don't personally believe that conservatives are any less intelligent than liberals, I also don't believe that the core of Ford nation is made up of true conservatives. Anyone that fell for the "gravy train" or who believed that Ford could actually deliver on his public sector subway promises was either not thinking or just not capable of it. What we got from the true conservatives (and you mentioned a number of them) in the last election was a lot of intellectual dishonesty, preying on the gullible to get the only conservative candidate into office, regardless of how unsuited he was for it.
Yes, I'm sure there are plenty who made an informed decision to vote for Ford knowing full well that most of what he was saying was total BS, simply because the other candidates had too much baggage or were just too liberal of lefty. I'm not sure what I would have done in their shoes... vote for someone clearly incompetent but who shares my political views, or vote for someone who doesn't share my views but has a greater chance of getting their policies passed. If I were of that political persuasion, I might have voted for Ford too, if only to minimize the damage I thought the "lefties" would do. Seeing how much damage Ford is doing to the city I hope they change their mind and vote differently in 2014.
To those still considering a vote for Ford, please explain one thing to me. The Liberals wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on gas plant cancellations and you, like me, are likely furious about it. Rob Ford has now wasted close to 200 million dollars on attempted changes to transit expansion plans and if nothing changes it's looking like the subway he wants won't happen. That's 200 million extra dollars spent to get the exact same thing we were going to get before this mess started. Are you equally furious with Ford? If not, why?
Adjei
Senior Member
The Liberals get so much heat for the gas plant but Rob Ford cancels transit projects which has cost us over 200 million and no one in the media says anything about it.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Ford wanted to extend the B-D subway to STC back in 2010. (Sheppard is a different issue).
After meeting with the Provincial Liberals (and Metrolinx), he was told that the vehicles were already ordered and the LRT must be built.
Ford is convinced to go with the SRT/ECLRT (underground).
Stintz and countless other Councillors support switching back to the separate SRT and ECLRT (median) option.
Provincial Liberals tell City they can still switch back to subway, if they vote that way.
Stintz, plus half of all Councillors change their mind and now support the subway.
Who exactly should get the blame for wasting this money. Ford's incompetance is matched or bettered by most Councillors and by the Provincial Liberal government.
ttk77
Senior Member
And this makes it different than the gas plant cancellation how? Both the NDP and the Conservatives supported the gas plant cancellation, just like a significant portion of council is supporting the subway. Ford is to blame pretty much entirely for the initial "cancellation" of Transit City and all the associated costs shortly after he was elected.
christiesplits
Senior Member
Anyone picking up on Minnan-Wong's mayoral-ambition vibes? He was on vacation during Crackgate and ever since then has distanced himself very far from Ford. This was very apparent with his staunch opposition to the Scarborough subway debates but has been detected in other comments he has made over the last few months. He gained some positive exposure as Public Works chair during the July flooding and Union Station progress announcements.
jje1000
Senior Member
Ford's rash action literally opened a can of worms regarding LRT vs subway. He's entirely at fault for that one.
Imagine if in an ideal world, Ford left Transit City alone and focused instead on other subway projects, getting new monies for the West Bloor Extension and Sheppard West?
LowPolygon
Senior Member
TORONTO, ON - AUGUST 12 - City councilor Gary Crawford working on his painting of Mayor Rob Ford that has taken months and is a labour of love. He is working in his basement studio in Scarborough and the portrait is meant for the Mayors mother. (Colin McConnell/Toronto Star via Getty Images)
BurlOak
Senior Member
Currently, it looks like the Transit City LRT plan for Scarborough was universally opposed (by most Councillors and all, or at least the main 2 Prvovincial Parties). As such, I think most of the blame for any expenses incurred would fall upon those who first came up with the plan, and those who delayed in seeing that this plan should be stopped as early as possible.
Imagine, in an ideal world, if politicians would have just corrected the flaws in Transit City instead of playing politics for the past 3 years. We would probably have a public more willing to support getting new monies for B-D extension West and the Sheppard West subway extension.
ScrappyBocks
New Member
Metroman is full of sh*t! How does something like the crack video "slowly spread"? If anyone had their hands on it that thing would spread like wildfire! I'm tired of metroman's supposed inside info and sources.
LowPolygon
Senior Member
first post and you're tired already? go lay down then.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
^I dunno if MM is full of sh!t or not (I tend to think not, but I have no way to be certain), but when it comes to the manner in which sealed evidence might get leaked, I can see how spreading slowly would apply until the point where a copy was obtained by a party with no electronic or documentary trail, at which point I agree, it will spread like wildfire. Until then, however, any person in possession of a copy has his/her job on the line if that copy is the one that turns up on youtube/liveleaks.
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