Rob Ford's Toronto

[somuchwater]

Okay, now I'm starting to see what your saying and where you're coming from.

For the record, I'm still not convinced that OSS 117 was trying to be classist or racist with his comments. I really feel that you really are connecting far too many dots. It was a dumb comment and nothing more.

But I fully agree with everything else you said. As with anything in politics, there are definitely demographic patterns that do make voters more likely to vote for a certain person. These absolutely cannot be ignored. And as you said, to believe that people voted for Ford out of plain ignorance or spite is ignorant in itself. Most voters do have logic behind who they selected. To dismiss this logic would be to shoot yourself in the foot.

I don't think OSS 117 was trying to be racist or classist either - but his comments ended up invoking the spectres of those ideas. That's how these things work. And sorry if I was overly confrontational or dismissive - I just get angry about this topic quite easily.

 

[somuchwater]

Apparently the Star is launching its paywall tomorrow with no prior notice (other than a very general "one is coming"). I wonder if they're getting close to dropping some new news, or if that's just my own wishful thinking.

@robyndoolittleTomorrow my newspaper is asking its avid online readers to help pay for the stories we produce. Invest in journalism. It matters. - RD

Totally speculative, but Robyn Doolittle just tweeted this. It lines up, but it might also be completely nothing.

 

[TorontoDoh]

I hope being a subscriber to the star gets you digital access for free

 

[adma]

Anti-Ford Nation

Ford Nation

Is that a "classist" knock?

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

I hope being a subscriber to the star gets you digital access for free

Yes, with conditions

Yes, but there are three simple conditions:
You must register for FREE Digital Access before Dec 31, 2013.
You must pay for your Home Delivery subscription using one of our monthly automated payment options.
You must keep your Home Delivery subscription active.
If you don’t meet these conditions, you can always add Digital Access to your Home Delivery subscription for $4.99 per month (plus tax).r gets you digital access for free

 

[OSS 117]

Spider is voting for Rob Ford, and continuing to comment here about it despite being out of step with most everyone here, because he wants you to know that he thinks that you, downtown elite, despite your concerns and your goals and your dreams for the city, are really just a hypocrite and a loser. Rob Ford the person and the politician hardly matters in that equation.

That's what I've always said. People who support Ford aren't really into politics so much as they're into telling "lib-tards" what they think of them. Usually it's older people with resentment issues towards their children, I think. People tend to become more stridently conservative right around the time their kids are gaining a political conscience in the other direction.

 

[OSS 117]

Utter, complete nonsense. Undoubtedly, there are some vocal supporters who think this way, but the vast majority are just people who support what appears to be 'common sense', and fiscal conservatism. Exactly how would you support this assertion of yours? With what empirical evidence? Or is it just a gut feeling you have, or something you've ascertained by reading comments under newspaper stories?

This relentless streak of "Ford's supporters are just stupid" is, whether people are willing to admit or not, starting to reek of classism - which in this city also means another -ism that starts with r-, too...

You're letting your class resentment show. If I say Ford supporters are stupid or ignorant, that's just giving them the benefit of the doubt. All of Ford's "common sense" and "fiscal conservatism" can be debunked with a simple google search---you don't even need to read a paper every day if you don't want to. So if someone supports him because of his politics, they're just as out of the loop as the people who just like seeing an idiot annoy the "Downtown Elite".

 

[OSS 117]

I don't see how it "reeks of classism".

And "common sense fiscal conservatism" is just a synonym for your typical political populism. In other words, cut taxes, cut services and hope the city doesn't fall apart, while at the same time having a few $Billion in change for subways. Hint: it never works. Ever.

"Common sense" in politics means "I can't be bothered to actually research what this will mean".

 

[adma]

Not just the Ford family, but these weird associates and long-time friends---the amazingly named Fabio Basso and Bruno Bellissimo. What was going on at that high school that these are the people that came out of it? It's like it was a weirdo machine, cranking out puffed-up bullies and sad-sack Italian drug-dealers.

And actually, amidst all of this Etobicoke Babylon, there's another name I haven't seen come up through the recent tales of Basso, Bellissimo, the Ford'n'Price hash'n'kidnapping, but which came to mind back w/the key-to-the-city presentation some months ago: Chuvalo. The fact that the Ford and Chuvalo families were in some way "close", presumably through the patriarchs' good-Etobicoke-citizen good will--but given the harrowing fate of all but one of the Chuvalo boys, I. still. just. can't. help. thinking. there was some deeper drug-and-vice-world connection among the respective offspring...

 

[OSS 117]

The problem is... what they "care about" is getting more stuff/services/subways while paying less taxes and cutting imaginary gravy. Which brings us back to ignorance.

Some of them don't want more stuff. A lot of older conservatives can take care of themselves financially. They just don't like the idea of other people getting something they feel like they're paying for. This is a big part of conservatism: The "I've got mine." effect.

 

[OSS 117]

I guess I'm just a bit astounded that someo people - like you - believe that this is a simple question of 'ignorance', and not one of a poor job by media, or awful candidates who can't sell an idea. I think if we're going to talk about ignorance, then how about we focus on people who believe that a very significant portion of Toronto's voters - let's say, roughly, at least 20% - are simply stupid?

Come on. By any definition of stupid, at least 20% of any population is going to be stupid. 6.4% of the population of the United States is full-on mentally challenged, so do the math.

 

[adma]

That's what I've always said. People who support Ford aren't really into politics so much as they're into telling "lib-tards" what they think of them. Usually it's older people with resentment issues towards their children, I think. People tend to become more stridently conservative right around the time their kids are gaining a political conscience in the other direction.

Or, not always that--oftentimes, their children might actually be fairly "functional" (at least to them) chips-off-the-old-block. I think it's more of a disenfranchised peevedness at libtardesque "outside forces" discouraging anything but that other-direction political conscience--or, perhaps, driving their chips-off-the-old-block out to exurban leper colonies like Barrie where their lifestyle wouldn't be sneered at...

 

[OSS 117]

But is that entirely their fault though? Not everyone who voted for him is an idiot. In the 2010 campaign, it would have been the responsibility of other candidates to show that what Ford was saying was complete and utter nonsense. They failed at that. Can we reasonably expect people to spend hours pouring through documentation to see that what Ford was saying is nonsense, when the media and other candidates wouldn't do it either?

Just playing the devils advocate.

There's something to that. I think most of the other candidates were so stunned to be losing to this guy that they didn't know what to do and just got paralyzed.

 

[JWBF]

Some of them don't want more stuff. A lot of older conservatives can take care of themselves financially. They just don't like the idea of other people getting something they feel like they're paying for. This is a big part of conservatism: The "I've got mine." effect.

I personally know someone, who consequently lives in Etobecoke, who belives that he is gracious when he "gives" to the poor, the problem is that he always expects something in return, usually some worth more than his gift, like obedience.

Funny thing is, he thinks he is being altruistic.

 

[somuchwater]

You're letting your class resentment show. If I say Ford supporters are stupid or ignorant, that's just giving them the benefit of the doubt. All of Ford's "common sense" and "fiscal conservatism" can be debunked with a simple google search---you don't even need to read a paper every day if you don't want to. So if someone supports him because of his politics, they're just as out of the loop as the people who just like seeing an idiot annoy the "Downtown Elite".

What a hopelessly naive argument - although calling it "an argument" is being generous. Apparently, in the world you live in, voters are only allowed to express their interests through voting after having researched a political entity's budgeting process, capital investment, financial situation, and the intricacies of transit planning. You also seem to believe that each of the 383,501 people who voted for Rob Ford couldn't possibly have done so b/c they valued small government, what Ford calls "fiscal conservatism", or simply identified with the guy. If that's not classist, I don't know what is. You're essentially saying that only the people with the time, wherewithal, education and privilege to make truly informed decisions about policy are the responsible voters. The others - those who should be served by both the press and the politicians who should be able to make clear which policies are and are not in a populace's interests - be damned.

So basically, forget the structural, social flaws and pathetic opponents that enabled Ford to get elected, but screw ordinary people who were hoodwinked by the idiot Ford twins, Kouvalis, Towhey & Co. Despicable.