Roads: Traffic Signals

[Northern Light]

I get the first point, but I don’t understand how anyone would prefer Toronto’s stop sign at every intersection approach over the judicious use of roundabouts. Assuming they’ve ever actually driven in places that have them, which I guess is why yet another good dea in use in many other countries would be inconceivable here. I’m so disappointed by our pig-headed refusal to learn from other cities.

Something not to be missed is that retrofitting them into most intersections would mean land acquisition, likely by expropriation.

Neither cheap, nor quick in this day and age.

Based on what I'm seeing online, the typical regional road roundabouts in Waterloo are 850m2, that's a diameter in the vicinity of 30M.

While the one on Windemere in Toronto is 21M across, and almost 4000sq ft.

That's a lot of land area.

The smaller one is the size of a fairly typical inner suburban lot, with a presumed land value close near 1M

The large one, needless to say, more than twice that.

Cost is a very tangible obstacle.

****

There are too many stop signs in Toronto, and too many traffic lights in many areas as well.

There are alternatives other than roundabouts.

Road diet the street, alternative paving treatments, put some sway into the street (even just using the existing ROW)...all of these slow traffic.

At intersections alternative instruction can be used including yield, flashing yellow etc.

For larger streets the issue is largely about safe crossings for pedestrians, and that is best addressed by shorter crossing distances, and predictable traffic flows with gaps.

Where the issue is one of managing turning traffic, things are more problematic. I'd love to see driver education that reminds people a left is three rights.....

But we also have the option of blocking lefts in more cases where they pose a danger for relatively little gain (mid-street island/barrier that blocks the turning movement.

We're a bit too stuck in the thought in the binary process of light/no light, stop sign/no stop sign rather than in shaping traffic flow to address the issue.

 

[W. K. Lis]

All way stop signs also waste fuel, if we follow the law as stated exactly. They also wear out brakes more, increasing the cost of maintenance.

Stop the stopping: a Big Idea to get rid of unwarranted stop signs

From link.

Start and stop. Start and stop. Start and stop.

It’s not the most effective way to read, and for transportation enthusiast Alan Fenton it’s not the most effective way to drive, either.

Stop signs, like periods, shouldn’t be abused, and Fenton says Toronto has long ignored proper street grammar to the detriment of traffic, safety and the environment.

“The total annual energy waste . . . is in excess of 100 million litres. This means somewhere around three times the fuel spilled from the Exxon Valdez tanker is being burned away at unnecessary stop signs in greater Toronto every year,” Fenton wrote in an article in Ontario Traffic.

That was 1992. Fenton had spent months calculating energy waste, interviewing Toronto residents and tracking down politicians and bureaucrats.

Fast-forward more than 20 years, and Fenton says things have only gotten worse. Despite increased environmental awareness and increased population and traffic, not to mention amalgamation in 1998, unwarranted stop signs continue to go up.

Fenton’s crosshairs are focused primarily on all-way stops, like the one recently approved for Gihon Spring Dr. and Shockley Dr./Franca Cres. in Etobicoke.

Etobicoke York Community Council voted for the traffic control device at its June 17 meeting, despite Transportation Services saying the measure is unwarranted.

“We wish to emphasize that stop controls define right-of-way,” Steven Kodama, Etobicoke York’s transportation services director, wrote in a staff report.

“Empirical evidence shows that all-way stop controls, especially when installed at low-volume locations such as this, have little significant impact on vehicle operating speeds or traffic volume on either side of the control, encourage non-compliance, waste fuel and increase vehicle noise and emissions . . . we do not recommend installing an all-way stop control at this intersection.”

In his Ontario Traffic article, Fenton alleged that about 80 per cent of stop signs erected between 1987 and 1992 were unnecessary and done for political expediency, as opposed to evidence.

“I can think of no other cases where this type of systematic abuse of civic administration, having such serious implications for both public heath and safety, would ever be allowed to continue for so long,” he concluded.

Transportation Services director Jacqueline White said she doesn’t have numbers on how many unwarranted stop signs are installed, but ultimately the decision lies with the city’s four community councils.

“Often (a) community council thinks that the stop sign should go in, whether (it’s) warranted or not, so there are quite a few of those,” she said. “Often they’re put in because local residents are asking for them to control speed, even though they’re not effective at that.”

Councillor Vincent Crisanti was behind the motion for the all-way stop. He did not respond to a request for comment.

Toronto adopted new guidelines for all-way stops in 2002, noting mounting evidence against their effectiveness.

The report behind the new guidelines found that unwarranted all-way stops may actually make intersections less safe, as pedestrians assume vehicles will stop, while drivers get used to ignoring them.

Elsewhere in Ontario, other municipalities are taking action against all-way stops.

Windsor determined in 2005 that at least 135 of its 200 all-way stops were unwarranted, and even banned new all-way stops on transit routes.

The discussion paper that sparked the ban cited a 1991 Toronto study, which estimated that removing 480 unwarranted stop signs would save nine million litres of gasoline and eliminate 21,000 tonnes of air pollutants. If Toronto had followed through on that study, emissions would have been reduced by about 5.5 per cent by 2005.

But White said she couldn’t think, off-hand, of any all-way stops in Toronto that have been removed, and the department does not have the resources to go back and measure whether they’re having a positive or negative effect.

Fenton said he understands why residents petition for all-way stops — he wants streets to be safer as well. But by agreeing to those demands, Fenton said, politicians are allowed to pay lip service to the idea of safety without actually making a difference.

Then there is snow and ice at stop signs... on hills.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

All way stop signs also waste fuel, if we follow the law as stated exactly. They also wear out brakes more, increasing the cost of maintenance.

Stop the stopping: a Big Idea to get rid of unwarranted stop signs

From link.







Then there is snow and ice at stop signs... on hills.

Well, really, what I think should be happening is put stop signs in places where it is necessary only.

 

[steveintoronto]

There's a problem though with NOT erecting stop signs: It was relaxed some years back in Toronto, only to find that indeed, accidents at unsigned intersections rose.

Having no STOP signs in some societies works quite well. But they are more cohesive and observant societies. Toronto is a very non-compliant driving culture. I could see it starting to deteriorate when I started commercial driving fifty years ago. As crazy as things got back then, you could still pretty much 'suss' what people were going to do, even if they shouldn't.

There's no way that is even close to possible nowadays. Shit just happens...people do the most unpredictable things driving. And appear totally unaware or concerned about the consequences.

How bad are Toronto drivers? Watch a shopping mall parking lot with no signs, (private property not applicable under the HTA in Ontario)(private parking lots are covered in most other provinces) and watch the complete mayhem that ensues. Because it's on private property, the accidents aren't compiled by the cops or government.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=onta...80j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Kitchener roundabouts:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comments/9bb0dv

 

[44 North]

I made a video covering the basics of Toronto's Transit Signal Priority system:

Let me know if there are particular topics you think I should cover in parts 2 and 3.

Great video explaining Transit Signal Priority. And filmed well with nice zooms, parts of the city seemed almost unrecognizable they looked so good. O/T, but wonder how easy it would be for a private user to "hack" the system allowing TSP for themselves (and other drivers around them). You say it's controlled through radio, which gives me the impression of and old school analog setup for some reason though likely a bit more complex. And do EMS/fire/police use this too?

 

[reaperexpress]

Great video explaining Transit Signal Priority. And filmed well with nice zooms, parts of the city seemed almost unrecognizable they looked so good.

Thanks!

O/T, but wonder how easy it would be for a private user to "hack" the system allowing TSP for themselves (and other drivers around them). You say it's controlled through radio, which gives me the impression of and old school analog setup for some reason though likely a bit more complex. And do EMS/fire/police use this too?

It is specifically illegal to hack into the priority system:

Highway Traffic Act 79.1

Pre-empting traffic control signal devices prohibited
79.1 (1) No person shall drive on a highway a motor vehicle that is equipped with, carries, contains or has attached to it a pre-empting traffic control signal device. 2002, c. 18, Sched. P, s. 22.

There's an exemption to the above for signal maintenance and transit vehicles.

And even if someone did that, it wouldn't be as great as you might think because the priority system is designed based on the anticipated travel characteristics of the transit route. Remember that in order to provide a green light when you arrive at the intersection, the system needs to have a prediction of when you'll arrive at the intersection. So to get the full benefit of priority, you'd need to stop your car for the expected amount of time at each transit stop, which kind of defeats the purpose of hacking into the signal priority.

For this same reason, emergency vehicles do not use the transit priority system. Fire services has their own pre-emption system which is much stronger than the transit priority system and is equipped at 50 signals near fire stations. In the City's Open Data (conveniently displayed here), you can see which system is equipped at each signal. For example, signal #0194 St Clair & Earlscourt is equipped with transit priority (for east-west streetcars) as well as fire pre-emption (for southbound fire trucks coming out of Fire Station #342:

 

[amnesiajune]

For this same reason, emergency vehicles do not use the transit priority system. Fire services has their own pre-emption system which is much stronger than the transit priority system and is equipped at 50 signals near fire stations. In the City's Open Data (conveniently displayed here), you can see which system is equipped at each signal. For example, signal #0194 St Clair & Earlscourt is equipped with transit priority (for east-west streetcars) as well as fire pre-emption (for southbound fire trucks coming out of Fire Station #342:

I'm not sure about Toronto, but ambulances and fire trucks have their own signal priority system in parts of York Region that keeps lights green or turns all lights red until they've gotten through.

 

[reaperexpress]

I'm not sure about Toronto, but ambulances and fire trucks have their own signal priority system in parts of York Region that keeps lights green or turns all lights red until they've gotten through.

From the link you're quoting:

Firehall Preemption
Getting to the scene of a fire or another emergency situation as quickly and safely as possible means saving lives. That’s the reason the City of Toronto has put in place a system to allow the fire division to temporarily affect traffic lights in order to get to an emergency even faster.

It works this way. A push button, which activates the traffic signal, is located in the radio room or in the truck bays at the fire hall. Once activated, the traffic signals are programmed to allow emergency vehicles to move quickly and safely on their way. In all, 50 traffic control signals are equipped with these circuits. These signals are located at either fire station exits or close to the stations. Once the emergency vehicles have passed through the traffic signals, the traffic lights return to their regular sequence.

Typical Cost of an Emergency Vehicle Preemption Installation
The installation cost can vary from $10,000 to $60,000. The majority of the cost is related to the hardwire or wireless interconnect from the pushbuttons in the firehall to the cabinet at the intersection. The wireless connections are cheaper and faster to install.

Installing Universal Emergency Vehicle Preemption at all Toronto Intersections
Toronto’s existing signals infrastructure does not support this technology. A huge capital investment would be required to upgrade the existing infrastructure and to install transmission/receiving equipment on the fire trucks.

 

[lenaitch]

From the link you're quoting:

Firehall Preemption
Getting to the scene of a fire or another emergency situation as quickly and safely as possible means saving lives. That’s the reason the City of Toronto has put in place a system to allow the fire division to temporarily affect traffic lights in order to get to an emergency even faster.

It works this way. A push button, which activates the traffic signal, is located in the radio room or in the truck bays at the fire hall. Once activated, the traffic signals are programmed to allow emergency vehicles to move quickly and safely on their way. In all, 50 traffic control signals are equipped with these circuits. These signals are located at either fire station exits or close to the stations. Once the emergency vehicles have passed through the traffic signals, the traffic lights return to their regular sequence.

Typical Cost of an Emergency Vehicle Preemption Installation
The installation cost can vary from $10,000 to $60,000. The majority of the cost is related to the hardwire or wireless interconnect from the pushbuttons in the firehall to the cabinet at the intersection. The wireless connections are cheaper and faster to install.

Installing Universal Emergency Vehicle Preemption at all Toronto Intersections
Toronto’s existing signals infrastructure does not support this technology. A huge capital investment would be required to upgrade the existing infrastructure and to install transmission/receiving equipment on the fire trucks.

It is possible that the poster was thinking of a system used in some municipalities (in my observation, fire only) where a vehicle-mounted strobe triggers a pole mounted sensor to interrupt the sequence to either green in favour or all stop.

 

[lenaitch]

There's a problem though with NOT erecting stop signs: It was relaxed some years back in Toronto, only to find that indeed, accidents at unsigned intersections rose.

Having no STOP signs in some societies works quite well. But they are more cohesive and observant societies. Toronto is a very non-compliant driving culture. I could see it starting to deteriorate when I started commercial driving fifty years ago. As crazy as things got back then, you could still pretty much 'suss' what people were going to do, even if they shouldn't.

There's no way that is even close to possible nowadays. Shit just happens...people do the most unpredictable things driving. And appear totally unaware or concerned about the consequences.

How bad are Toronto drivers? Watch a shopping mall parking lot with no signs, (private property not applicable under the HTA in Ontario)(private parking lots are covered in most other provinces) and watch the complete mayhem that ensues. Because it's on private property, the accidents aren't compiled by the cops or government.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=onta...80j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Kitchener roundabouts:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comments/9bb0dv

This is so very true, although I'm unsure if the root cause is lack of knowledge or simple self-centeredness. Most people have no clue how to function at an all-way stop let alone an uncontrolled intersection. One only needs to watch the utter confusion or ignorance at a light-controlled intersection when either the lights are out or their logic has failed and go into flashing red/amber. Yield signs are just suggestions.

I lived in a town that had very few stops signs. Most intersections were controlled by yield signs. We all lived through it. It is possible, but not in the GTA nor perhaps any large and busy municipality.

Perhaps municipalities should stop using them as a means to solve local complaints and focus on actual traffic dynamics principles.

There are a few new roundabouts near here installed in the past five or so years. I am still very cautious using them, especially so on the motorcycle, since I see far too many drivers who have no clue how to use them. The issue of the amount of land required would be limiting. The radius has to be able to accommodate large trucks. Some would say large trucks have no place on residential streets, which maybe true until someone needs a moving company, large delivery or contractor, or their house is on fire.

 

[reaperexpress]

Since moving to the Netherlands, I have been examining how Dutch traffic signals manage to be so much more flexible and safe than Canadian ones, and I think a key factor is the widespread use of multi-stage crossings. And unlike the examples you might know in the GTA (University Ave, Highway 7, etc), the multi-stage crossings in the Netherlands still allow pedestrians to cross the street in one go.

I made a video to illustrate my thoughts:

 

[Towered]

I also noticed when driving in Europe that there are many yield signs but few stop signs. Here it's the opposite.

 

[Towered]

Also wanted to note a number of new traffic lights being installed:

Dundas and St. Patrick
Queen and McCaul
Lansdowne and Whytock
Annette and Quebec

All of those are well overdue. I also have a personal list of places where I think there really should be lights...

 

[JasonParis]

I believe Richmond W & Simcoe finally has a light as well.

 

[Towered]

I believe Richmond W & Simcoe finally has a light as well.

Yup, for a while now.