Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Fritter]

also shows how greenfield highway construction is a lot cheaper than rebuilding existing highway

Could one of the main reasons for this be the costs of maintaining operations on an existing highway (building detoured right of way and re-establishing original, temporary structures etc.) and staging around that, as opposed to building what is needed, no limits, on greenfield?

 

[lenaitch]

Could one of the main reasons for this be the costs of maintaining operations on an existing highway (building detoured right of way and re-establishing original, temporary structures etc.) and staging around that, as opposed to building what is needed, no limits, on greenfield?

That could be part of it, but the costs to work around existing infrastructure, chip away what you want to replace, have what's left evaluated, engineered and remediated, brought up to current standards, then build new around it, is much more expensive that greenfield. Heck, the first time I re-built a deck I learned that lesson. Rip it out - put in new.

 

[darth_freeman]

Traffic control and temporary barriers make a large cost for working on existing freeways. The standards are constantly evolving to improve worker safety and the costs seemingly increase every year. A lot of the work is done at night also which carries a premium. Production rates are lower, etc.

 

[Haljackey]

Flew into Toronto Pearson, caught the 403/410 meeting the 401 nearby.

 

[Transportfan]

Tomken Road was originally the southern continuation of Heart Lake Road, as can be seen with the 410 lining up with it north of Steeles.in the distance.

 

[Dan416]

Tomken Road was originally the southern continuation of Heart Lake Road, as can be seen with the 410 lining up with it north of Steeles.in the distance.

I decided to look on Google maps to look at this. 410 kinda "jogs" between Derry and Steeles to the east, so that northern segment does seem to line up with Heart Lake Rd, whereas the southern segment lines up with Cawthra. I do find it interesting that they took existing roads to build 410 rather than take a new alignment. I wonder why they did that for 410.

 

[JasonParis]

There's even still a bit of Heart Lake Road next to the 410 between Steeles and Orenda.

 

[ShonTron]

I decided to look on Google maps to look at this. 410 kinda "jogs" between Derry and Steeles to the east, so that northern segment does seem to line up with Heart Lake Rd, whereas the southern segment lines up with Cawthra. I do find it interesting that they took existing roads to build 410 rather than take a new alignment. I wonder why they did that for 410.

Partly because that land was reserved and formerly lay between the Town of Brampton and Chinguacousy Township before amalgamation. It was the route of least resistance.

Highway 427 is similar as it follows the old Indian Line alignment between Airport/Dixon Road and Finch.

 

[JasonParis]

And likewise is a municipal boundary between Malton (Mississauga) and Rexdale (Toronto). Although, further south both sides are Toronto.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The Highways program has been updated on July 26:

Ontario’s highway programs

Learn about the 2024 Ontario highways program. Find highway expansion and rehabilitation projects that are planned or underway.

www.ontario.ca

The program now identifies "2025" works specifically, compared to before when it was "2025-2026". There is now a "2026-2027" option instead.

No new expansion projects listed from what I can tell other than "Automated Traffic Management System" installation on the 404.

Couple of notes:

- The North Canal Bridge replacement on the 400 has been deferred to 2025.
- The Caledonia Grand River Bridge replacement (finally) has a start date of 2025, despite the contract having a 2020 contract number..
- "intersection improvements" are identified at Highway 6 as it pulls into Caledonia - I assume this will be the addition of double-left turn lanes or perhaps a roundabout.
- The Grand River Bridges for the new Highway 7 in Kitchener are identified for a 2025 construction start
- The 401 is scheduled to be resurfaced through Morriston in 2025, which seems to suggest that the primary bypass construction is not particularly imminent.
- Dunlop St interchange on the 400 continues to be on pace for replacement next year, as well as the Hwy 93 interchange on 11 just past the split (interestingly labelled as "Hwy 400A")
- Duckworth Bayfield St interchange replacement continues to be listed for "2026-2027", so presumably 2026 start. This represents the last structural replacement required on the 400 after over a decade of replacements of every bridge structure from Vaughan to Barrie.
- the next phases of the 400 extension are listed for "2026-2027".
- The western portion of the Bradford Bypass is listed as "2026-2027".


Overall the actual pace of construction on Provincial highways seems to be low, particularly relating to capacity expansions. As of next year there will be only a single capacity addition under construction in the province - the 400 widening - with most of the long-promised projects continuing to be strung out with no real hard start dates.

 

[Dan416]

The Highways program has been updated on July 26:

Ontario’s highway programs

Learn about the 2024 Ontario highways program. Find highway expansion and rehabilitation projects that are planned or underway.

www.ontario.ca

The program now identifies "2025" works specifically, compared to before when it was "2025-2026". There is now a "2026-2027" option instead.

No new expansion projects listed from what I can tell other than "Automated Traffic Management System" installation on the 404.

Couple of notes:

- The North Canal Bridge replacement on the 400 has been deferred to 2025.
- The Caledonia Grand River Bridge replacement (finally) has a start date of 2025, despite the contract having a 2020 contract number..
- "intersection improvements" are identified at Highway 6 as it pulls into Caledonia - I assume this will be the addition of double-left turn lanes or perhaps a roundabout.
- The Grand River Bridges for the new Highway 7 in Kitchener are identified for a 2025 construction start
- The 401 is scheduled to be resurfaced through Morriston in 2025, which seems to suggest that the primary bypass construction is not particularly imminent.
- Dunlop St interchange on the 400 continues to be on pace for replacement next year, as well as the Hwy 93 interchange on 11 just past the split (interestingly labelled as "Hwy 400A")
- Duckworth St interchange replacement continues to be listed for "2026-2027", so presumably 2026 start. This represents the last structural replacement required on the 400 after over a decade of replacements of every bridge structure from Vaughan to Barrie.
- the next phases of the 400 extension are listed for "2026-2027".
- The western portion of the Bradford Bypass is listed as "2026-2027".


Overall the actual pace of construction on Provincial highways seems to be low, particularly relating to capacity expansions. As of next year there will be only a single capacity addition under construction in the province - the 400 widening - with most of the long-promised projects continuing to be strung out with no real hard start dates.

I love highway expansion as much as the next person, but in a way I can see this as a positive that funds have been going to transit over highways, even under Ford's conservative government. I'm not sure how much it fits in with Conservative ideology, but it does seem pragmatic as transit is the only way to really tackle the congestion we see in Toronto and the GTA.

 

[lenaitch]

Dunlop St interchange on the 400 continues to be on pace for replacement next year, as well as the Hwy 93 interchange on 11 just past the split (interestingly labelled as "Hwy 400A")
- Duckworth St interchange replacement continues to be listed for "2026-2027", so presumably 2026 start. This represents the last structural replacement required on the 400 after over a decade of replacements of every bridge structure from Vaughan to Barrie.

Bayfield interchange/bridge is listed as 2026-2027 as well.

The 1.1km stretch between 'the split' (we used to call it Willow Creek) and Crown Hill is a bit of an oddity, since Hwy 400 veers n/w and Hwy 11 doesn't start until Crown Hill/CR 93). Administratively they have to identify it as something, although it is not publicly signed as such.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I love highway expansion as much as the next person, but in a way I can see this as a positive that funds have been going to transit over highways, even under Ford's conservative government. I'm not sure how much it fits in with Conservative ideology, but it does seem pragmatic as transit is the only way to really tackle the congestion we see in Toronto and the GTA.

Perhaps - I was more so commenting how how despite Ford's rhetoric, his actual action on Highways has actually been rather anemic. If anything, it's slower than the Liberals were. There is a long list of provincial highway projects which have been "funded" for a very long time which just don't seem to be getting any closer to actual construction.

 

[ShonTron]

Bayfield interchange/bridge is listed as 2026-2027 as well.

The 1.1km stretch between 'the split' (we used to call it Willow Creek) and Crown Hill is a bit of an oddity, since Hwy 400 veers n/w and Hwy 11 doesn't start until Crown Hill/CR 93). Administratively they have to identify it as something, although it is not publicly signed as such.

I've long thought of that interchange as the Crown Hill interchange, even if that more accurately describes the 11/93 interchange

 

[Transportfan]

I decided to look on Google maps to look at this. 410 kinda "jogs" between Derry and Steeles to the east, so that northern segment does seem to line up with Heart Lake Rd, whereas the southern segment lines up with Cawthra. I do find it interesting that they took existing roads to build 410 rather than take a new alignment. I wonder why they did that for 410.

The 410 and part of the 403 isn't actually a replacement of Cawthra, as Cawthra ended at Eglinton, where the concession grid changed. It was built there because development ended at Heart Lake/Tomken in Mississauga and there was open space available to build it to the west, allowing Heart Lake/Tomken to be left intact.