Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[lenaitch]

finally. The 69 twinning is wildly behind schedule. Hopefully more segments proceed soon.

Being "not in design stage" suggests that shovels in the ground is still a ways off. These negotiations have become extremely complex and also often see more that parcels of land on the table.

 

[KevinT]

In a Provincial presser today:

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

Could we see some 130km/h speed limits coming in some locations? What?

I like this to the effect that it makes my current driving speeds somewhat less illegal. It won't change my cruise control set points at all...

 

[nfitz]

I like this to the effect that it makes my current driving speeds somewhat less illegal. It won't change my cruise control set points at all...

We aren't going to see 120 km/hr speed limits on the highways (presumably 2-lane) that have 120 km/hr design speeds. MTO has been using 120 to 130 km/hr design speeds on the 400-series highways for half-a-century. It's a safety factor (for better or worse).

 

[jje1000]

I still maintain the 401 tunnel idea was used to make a 407 buyback/subsidy idea seem more reasonable IMO.

Ford government ‘in conversation’ with Hwy. 407 owners as buy back calls grow​

By Isaac Callan & Colin D'Mello Global News
Posted November 28, 2024 6:00 am

The Ford government says it has been “in conversation” with the owners of Highway 407 as calls grow for the province to either buy back the route or subsidize truck tolls to move transport vehicles off Highway 401.

A spokesperson for the minister of transportation told Global News conversations had taken place but didn’t say what the government was considering or how far it had gone in its discussions with the privately-operated toll highway.

The operators of the tolled highway told Global News on Nov. 8 that the government had “not engaged in any discussions with us regarding a potential sale of the 407 ETR.”

The highway’s operators, however, were less clear when about whether conversations had taken place about subsidizing the tolls of trucks on the highway.

Asked several times if subsidy talks had taken place, a spokesperson refused to confirm or deny potential conversations.

The focus on Highway 407 comes as the Ontario NDP pitches subsidizing the cost of trucks running on the route as a potential solution to gridlock, suggesting it would remove them from Highway 401 and free up much-needed capacity.

Ford claimed that Highway 407 is now “worth approximately $35 billion” but said the government decided not to fork out to buy it back because of studies completed internally suggesting “all the 400 series highways are going to be at full capacity” in the next quarter-century.

At the same time, pressure for the government to take action on Highway 407 could be growing from a new area, as a pair of municipal councillors request a study of the cost of buying back the route — or a one-year toll subsidy pilot.

Vaughan Coun. Marilyn Iafrate, backed by Coun. Rosanna DeFrancesca, plans to introduce a local council motion next week offering its support to the idea of the government studying a 407 buyback plan or implementing the one-year subsidy pilot.

“I’m not the only one — most people in the GTA don’t care what you do or how you do it, just free it up, open it up, reduce those tolls, remove those tolls,” Iafrate said.

“I know that the proper of undertaking this is doing a feasibility. So given the premier has mentioned over and over again that he’s open to that, I want him to know that we suppose that. And I want this motion to go to all the municipalities along the 407 because I would think they’re thinking like we are. Their residents are being gouged on that highway.”

Ford government ‘in conversation’ with Hwy. 407 owners as buy back calls grow | Globalnews.ca

The Ministry of Transportatioon said conversations had taken place but didn't say what the government was considering or how far it had gone in its discussions.

globalnews.ca

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think it's the opposite.

Why spend $35 billion to buy back the 407 and get 0 new capacity if you can spend $40 billion and add 6 lanes of new capacity across the highest demand area of the freeway network?

The article does say that conversations haven't really been focused on purchasing the highway either - but rather a subsidy for trucks.

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with truck subsidies in off-peak periods, which honestly would be great news. The 407 has a lot of room on it to spare outside of rush hours.

 

[turbanplanner]

I think it's the opposite.

Why spend $35 billion to buy back the 407 and get 0 new capacity if you can spend $40 billion and add 6 lanes of new capacity across the highest demand area of the freeway network?

The article does say that conversations haven't really been focused on purchasing the highway either - but rather a subsidy for trucks.

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with truck subsidies in off-peak periods, which honestly would be great news. The 407 has a lot of room on it to spare outside of rush hours.

Where would you add capacity that isn't already slated to?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Where would you add capacity that isn't already slated to?

I was referencing Ford's 401 tunnel idea, but if you want a more serious response, there are over a dozen unfunded capacity expansions across the GTHA that MTO has on the books..

401 widening Milton to Kitchener
403 widening Oakville
QEW widening Mississauga
QEW widening Burlington
403 Widening Burlington - Hamilton
400 widening Newmarket - Barrie
404 HOV extension to Green Lane
401 widening Pickering to Highway 35
410 widening Brampton
Highway 6 / 403 upgrades
QEW widening Hamilton - Niagara
401 widening Cobourg - Kingston
404 Extension


And those are just the ones that MTO has completed environmental assessments for.. there are many more lurking in the background which MTO hasn't spent major money on yet, like an expansion of the Burlington Skyway, the 401 tunnel Ford recently announced, etc.

And the crazy thing is you could probably build literally all of those, minus the 401 tunnel, for less than it would cost to buy the 407.

 

[turbanplanner]

I was referencing Ford's 401 tunnel idea, but if you want a more serious response, there are over a dozen unfunded capacity expansions across the GTHA that MTO has on the books..

401 widening Milton to Kitchener
403 widening Oakville
QEW widening Mississauga
QEW widening Burlington
403 Widening Burlington - Hamilton
400 widening Newmarket - Barrie
404 HOV extension to Green Lane
401 widening Pickering to Highway 35
410 widening Brampton
Highway 6 / 403 upgrades
QEW widening Hamilton - Niagara
401 widening Cobourg - Kingston
404 Extension


And those are just the ones that MTO has completed environmental assessments for.. there are many more lurking in the background which MTO hasn't spent major money on yet, like an expansion of the Burlington Skyway, the 401 tunnel Ford recently announced, etc.

And the crazy thing is you could probably build literally all of those, minus the 401 tunnel, for less than it would cost to buy the 407.

Oh wow I assumed those were already funded or at least like had a deadline!

As a side note the 407 price increases are criminal, the "new" motorcycle rate is just what cars are paying today. my friends in the delivery business will have a 70%+ increase in costs.

 

[just east of the creek]

A friend overseas forwarded me some articles on the subject of tolling highways and congestion tolling, and the spin off benefits (further $ for maintenance and improvement plus additional capacities to transit) Singapore was one example I was not formerly really familiar with, although I have been there. This looks to be another example that well bears looking at. I think Marcus Gee pointed out today (?) in the Globe that states such as NY have sued tolling since roads were begun to fund services. Anyone driving around the Chicago area would be aware of this as well.

Combine the above, with the reports ( not authenticated ) of the price to re-purchase the 407 as sitting in the 36 billion plus mark. Not to mention the latest tunnel,fantasies. Plus the long list of unfunded highway projects cites in posts above, the provinces current debt ($429 billion plus and rising with some projections seeing it above $460 billion within 3 years) and this years deficit spending (maybe 8 billion, even after a hefty 6 billion increase in revenues - no figures are final although), current and increasing needs for transit funding, desperately needed funding for Toronto (and depending on programs, other cities throughout Ontario), the medical situation in the province and we could go on.

With the potential arrival of some form of HSR, slowly, a greater awareness of VIA as a integral piece of the transportation puzzle, the arrival some day of TTC light rail now in the final approval steps, the building of the Ontario Line, continuing improvements to GO services, the culture war around the use of the car as a primary method of commuting, changes to zoning regarding densification of neighbourhoods etc. etc. etc. it is a very good and highly appropriate time to have an informed and well researched discussion on wide ranging tolling of highways in the GTA, on congestion tolling within some areas of the GTA, on how this might be implemented, how would the revenues be used , timelines, social impacts, transit impacts etc etc

I suggested to DF that if he was really keen about building a tunnel, how about the Gardiner? Waiting to hear back on that….

 

[J Bacon]

As a side note the 407 price increases are criminal, the "new" motorcycle rate is just what cars are paying today. my friends in the delivery business will have a 70%+ increase in costs.

In an ideal world, the 407 would be a non-profit organization with tolls being used for current operations and to fund future repairs and expansions.

 

[Fritter]

The more you lower the 407 tools the more it becomes another congested 401. I don't like the high tolls as well, but everyone needs to realize the high tolls serve a purpose. The hefty tolls limit the number of people willing to pay, and keep the highway realitivly free and clear of traffic. If you dramatically reduce the 407 tolls, you'll end up paying a toll just to sit in traffic!

 

[turbanplanner]

The more you lower the 407 tools the more it becomes another congested 401. I don't like the high tolls as well, but everyone needs to realize the high tolls serve a purpose. The hefty tolls limit the number of people willing to pay, and keep the highway realitivly free and clear of traffic. If you dramatically reduce the 407 tolls, you'll end up paying a toll just to sit in traffic!

The traffic is never bad on the 407 though, and the price increase for delivery vehicles will now be 70% MORE (roughly) than what they pay today.

 

[11th]

A friend overseas forwarded me some articles on the subject of tolling highways and congestion tolling, and the spin off benefits (further $ for maintenance and improvement plus additional capacities to transit) Singapore was one example I was not formerly really familiar with, although I have been there. This looks to be another example that well bears looking at. I think Marcus Gee pointed out today (?) in the Globe that states such as NY have sued tolling since roads were begun to fund services. Anyone driving around the Chicago area would be aware of this as well.

Combine the above, with the reports ( not authenticated ) of the price to re-purchase the 407 as sitting in the 36 billion plus mark. Not to mention the latest tunnel,fantasies. Plus the long list of unfunded highway projects cites in posts above, the provinces current debt ($429 billion plus and rising with some projections seeing it above $460 billion within 3 years) and this years deficit spending (maybe 8 billion, even after a hefty 6 billion increase in revenues - no figures are final although), current and increasing needs for transit funding, desperately needed funding for Toronto (and depending on programs, other cities throughout Ontario), the medical situation in the province and we could go on.

With the potential arrival of some form of HSR, slowly, a greater awareness of VIA as a integral piece of the transportation puzzle, the arrival some day of TTC light rail now in the final approval steps, the building of the Ontario Line, continuing improvements to GO services, the culture war around the use of the car as a primary method of commuting, changes to zoning regarding densification of neighbourhoods etc. etc. etc. it is a very good and highly appropriate time to have an informed and well researched discussion on wide ranging tolling of highways in the GTA, on congestion tolling within some areas of the GTA, on how this might be implemented, how would the revenues be used , timelines, social impacts, transit impacts etc etc

I suggested to DF that if he was really keen about building a tunnel, how about the Gardiner? Waiting to hear back on that….

The Gardiner serves mostly the downtown and it has a rail corridor running right next to it; even harder to justify spending the billions.
At least for the 401, it can be billed as serving the needs of (southern) Ontario (commercial) traffic.

 

[ARG1]

The traffic is never bad on the 407 though, and the price increase for delivery vehicles will now be 70% MORE (roughly) than what they pay today.

The traffic isn't bad because the tolls are high. A toll increase simply means that there are more and more people who are using the 407, and they need to lower the demand (perhaps because many of the immigrants we brought over the last few years now have cars?).

 

[turbanplanner]

The traffic isn't bad because the tolls are high. A toll increase simply means that there are more and more people who are using the 407, and they need to lower the demand (perhaps because many of the immigrants we brought over the last few years now have cars?).

Are there usage numbers published? Just a hunch but if you see the prices for the ford transit van style vehicles has gone up 70% I think it's because the 401 is basically unusable if you delivery for a job so they know they can charge what is effectively highway robbery! The fact they went from Four to TWELVE zones supports that IMO!