Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Woodbridge_Heights]

My observations...

1) My concern with adjusting speed limits up is that there will always be the yahoos who want, or feel they need, to be travelling faster than the majority of the surrounding traffic. Weaving dangerously in and out of traffic lanes. Sure speed differential a larger contributing factor than actual speed but when the rest of traffic is moving at 110 Km/hr, someone travelling at 130 Km/hr (because the road was built to this standard!) is just as dangerous as someone travelling at 90 (the speed differential is 20 Km/hr. I'm not convinced that upping the speed limits on 400 series highways to 110 or 120 Km/hr is going to stop the yahoos from thinking that now they can travel at 150 or 160 Km/hr, since their motives don't appear to be about what is a safe travelling speed but that they can be passing car after car at a speed faster than the rest of traffic. This is why I'd like to see speeding laws work as a % of the posted speed limit rather than a simple x over the limit. I think it's pretty obvious that doing 60 in a 40 zone (50% over the limit) is more dangerous than doing 120 in a 100 zone (20 % over the limit)

2) Regarding lane discipline. I think part of the issue at least in the GTHA is that in an urban area with high traffic volumes the lane discipline of keep right except to pass falls apart. Our highways are congested for much of the day and efficient use of the lanes starts to overtake lane discipline in this scenario. Unfortunately GTA drivers get used to this idea and when the highways are not congested they do not revert to the keep right rule. I've driven to Montreal a few times and drove up to Lake Superior a few weeks ago and I find once you are out of the GTA (or GGH), traffic volumes drop and lane discipline takes precedence again.

3) Driver training. This is an interesting one that would need further study. While some would argue that our licensing standards are low, we still see stories of people being taken to some small town testing centre to get their license because they avoid the busy Toronto streets/highways. This seems to be a multi faceted issue. Without adequate public transit having a license becomes a perceived necessity and thus a reinforcing loop takes place; People want cars, testing becomes lax, MTO/gov't focuses on roadways over transit, people increase their desire for cars.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I mean the 400 series highways will more than likely have their limits increased to at least 110 in the next year or so once the province's "test" period on the QEW, 402, and 417 wraps up.

I've driven the stretches of test highways many times and they operate more or less the same as other highways, perhaps with average speeds bumped up by 5km/h or so.

 

[lenaitch]

My observations...

1) My concern with adjusting speed limits up is that there will always be the yahoos who want, or feel they need, to be travelling faster than the majority of the surrounding traffic. Weaving dangerously in and out of traffic lanes. Sure speed differential a larger contributing factor than actual speed but when the rest of traffic is moving at 110 Km/hr, someone travelling at 130 Km/hr (because the road was built to this standard!) is just as dangerous as someone travelling at 90 (the speed differential is 20 Km/hr. I'm not convinced that upping the speed limits on 400 series highways to 110 or 120 Km/hr is going to stop the yahoos from thinking that now they can travel at 150 or 160 Km/hr, since their motives don't appear to be about what is a safe travelling speed but that they can be passing car after car at a speed faster than the rest of traffic. This is why I'd like to see speeding laws work as a % of the posted speed limit rather than a simple x over the limit. I think it's pretty obvious that doing 60 in a 40 zone (50% over the limit) is more dangerous than doing 120 in a 100 zone (20 % over the limit)

2) Regarding lane discipline. I think part of the issue at least in the GTHA is that in an urban area with high traffic volumes the lane discipline of keep right except to pass falls apart. Our highways are congested for much of the day and efficient use of the lanes starts to overtake lane discipline in this scenario. Unfortunately GTA drivers get used to this idea and when the highways are not congested they do not revert to the keep right rule. I've driven to Montreal a few times and drove up to Lake Superior a few weeks ago and I find once you are out of the GTA (or GGH), traffic volumes drop and lane discipline takes precedence again.

3) Driver training. This is an interesting one that would need further study. While some would argue that our licensing standards are low, we still see stories of people being taken to some small town testing centre to get their license because they avoid the busy Toronto streets/highways. This seems to be a multi faceted issue. Without adequate public transit having a license becomes a perceived necessity and thus a reinforcing loop takes place; People want cars, testing becomes lax, MTO/gov't focuses on roadways over transit, people increase their desire for cars.

2) Yes, I was thinking more of outside of the mega-lane highways outside of the GTA. Keeping right is just about impossible given the volumes. It also doesn't help that the right-hand lane often disappears into an exit lane.

3) The exodus of GTA driving students to smaller centres means that the highest speed they will encounter is 80kmh with very low volumes. Lane discipline is much easier when there is only one, perhaps two, to choose from. That the smaller centres often have a much lower failure rate (and possibly shorter wait times) is well known.

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[W. K. Lis]

 

[ShonTron]

Speed differentials will always exist so long as you have a mix of vehicle types and driving abilities (notwithstanding Ontario low driver qualifications - which I totally agree with). Many heavy transports can't maintain the current speed limit on long grades, let alone a higher limit; vehicles pulling trailers, a city dweller who heads out on vacation once or twice a year, etc. I drive a big, highway cruiser motorcycle that is easily capable of doing 120 all day - but it's tiring, so I don't. Somebody doing 120 is approached by somebody doing 130 - somebody has to change lanes.

Some would say that folks who can't maintain the speed limit should simply use an arterial route, but the reality is that isn't going to happen and, in areas like 400 and 11 north, there is no viable alternative.

The 401 has viable alternatives - I'll take those (Highway 7 to go to Ottawa at least part of the way), or Highway 2 in sections, just to break up the stress that the 401 can be. But yeah, Highway 400 is such a necessary evil. Going the other way around Lake Simcoe via Highway 12 and 48 is not fun either because there's too much traffic and few passing opportunities, and not enough capacity through Beaverton.

Now that I have family in Sudbury, I really hate the drive through Barrie. But there are so few viable alternatives the way things are set up coming south on the 400 extension.

 

[ARG1]

My observations...

1) My concern with adjusting speed limits up is that there will always be the yahoos who want, or feel they need, to be travelling faster than the majority of the surrounding traffic. Weaving dangerously in and out of traffic lanes. Sure speed differential a larger contributing factor than actual speed but when the rest of traffic is moving at 110 Km/hr, someone travelling at 130 Km/hr (because the road was built to this standard!) is just as dangerous as someone travelling at 90 (the speed differential is 20 Km/hr. I'm not convinced that upping the speed limits on 400 series highways to 110 or 120 Km/hr is going to stop the yahoos from thinking that now they can travel at 150 or 160 Km/hr, since their motives don't appear to be about what is a safe travelling speed but that they can be passing car after car at a speed faster than the rest of traffic. This is why I'd like to see speeding laws work as a % of the posted speed limit rather than a simple x over the limit. I think it's pretty obvious that doing 60 in a 40 zone (50% over the limit) is more dangerous than doing 120 in a 100 zone (20 % over the limit)

2) Regarding lane discipline. I think part of the issue at least in the GTHA is that in an urban area with high traffic volumes the lane discipline of keep right except to pass falls apart. Our highways are congested for much of the day and efficient use of the lanes starts to overtake lane discipline in this scenario. Unfortunately GTA drivers get used to this idea and when the highways are not congested they do not revert to the keep right rule. I've driven to Montreal a few times and drove up to Lake Superior a few weeks ago and I find once you are out of the GTA (or GGH), traffic volumes drop and lane discipline takes precedence again.

3) Driver training. This is an interesting one that would need further study. While some would argue that our licensing standards are low, we still see stories of people being taken to some small town testing centre to get their license because they avoid the busy Toronto streets/highways. This seems to be a multi faceted issue. Without adequate public transit having a license becomes a perceived necessity and thus a reinforcing loop takes place; People want cars, testing becomes lax, MTO/gov't focuses on roadways over transit, people increase their desire for cars.

1) The Yahoos exist and will always to continue to exist. The question is what is a good chunk of the driverbase doing, and very often you see the same picture - you're driving up the 404, 90% of the cars are travelling at 120, and you see maybe 1 or 2 cars going 100 and 110 and everyone's driving around them. You don't want to know how often I drive on the 407 going 125, and then I get passed by THE POLICE who is casually driving at like 130-135. When the police is casually speeding, you know something is horribly, horribly wrong.

2) Agreed

3) Drivetest seems to be a real big coinflip, and from my personal experience it really seems to be area dependent on how rich the location location is - richer areas have stricter drivtests presumably because the examiners feel like they can make more money getting people to retake the tests. You don't want to know how many horror stories I hear about the Newmarket Drivetest location where going over the red line by like a centimeter is enough to fail you. Meanwhile if you want to wake up early and drive all the way to say Guelph, your chances of passing are much, much higher. It took me like 3 tries to get my G2 at Newmarket, and for my G I decided to last minute switch to Guelph, and during that test I didn't necesserily perform badly, but badly enough that I probably would've been failed if I went to Newmarket. I still passed.

 

[lenaitch]

The 401 has viable alternatives - I'll take those (Highway 7 to go to Ottawa at least part of the way), or Highway 2 in sections, just to break up the stress that the 401 can be. But yeah, Highway 400 is such a necessary evil. Going the other way around Lake Simcoe via Highway 12 and 48 is not fun either because there's too much traffic and few passing opportunities, and not enough capacity through Beaverton.

Now that I have family in Sudbury, I really hate the drive through Barrie. But there are so few viable alternatives the way things are set up coming south on the 400 extension.

Ya, 7 or CR2, but they are really slow but, like you say, for breaks. I went to Brockville last year using 7 and it took forever (well, in modern terms). There's a fair bit of truck traffic on it and in the Kaladar area there are very few passing zones.

For n/b from Toronto, you can try Weston Rd. then jog west at (former) Hwy 9 to pick up 5 Sideroad (County Rd. 53), which turns into Veterans Dr. which turns into Ferndale which turns into Wilson to its end at Horseshoe Valley Rd. then east to pick up the 400. Not fast if 400 is running normally but it doesn't take much to grind it to a halt.

 

[Undead]

@ARG1 interesting regarding Newmarket. I heard that was the easiest location. In fact, I passed my G2 and G there and both on the first time. Both tests were a joke. The full G involved driving north one block on the arterial and back south one block on the 404.

 

[ARG1]

@ARG1 interesting regarding Newmarket. I heard that was the easiest location. In fact, I passed my G2 and G there and both on the first time. Both tests were a joke. The full G involved driving north one block on the arterial and back south one block on the 404.

That's, quite interesting. I have heard in some cases people get lucky when they're the last test of the day, the examiner just wants to go home and they get just pass you, but in general it's usually quite negative. Another example is someone who once failed the G test because they didn't keep the turn signal on the entire time when on the on ramp to the 404.

 

[lenaitch]

If you hang around either the Orillia and Bancroft centres, or even their nearby Tim's, in the morning they are a sea of GTA driving school vehicles.

 

[north-of-anything]

I took all my tests at the Newmarket location, and the G test took me three tries because you're expected to get up to speed on the 404, switch to the middle lane, switch back to the right lane, and get off the highway, in the short distance between Davis Drive and Green Lane. I was automatically failed once because I didn't speed up from 30 km/h on the on-ramp to 100 km/h fast enough...

 

[kamira51]

I took all my tests at the Newmarket location, and the G test took me three tries because you're expected to get up to speed on the 404, switch to the middle lane, switch back to the right lane, and get off the highway, in the short distance between Davis Drive and Green Lane. I was automatically failed once because I didn't speed up from 30 km/h on the on-ramp to 100 km/h fast enough...

To be honest, if you're not speeding up before merging into the stream of traffic, you're creating a very dangerous situation for those who have to slow down to let you in.

 

[innsertnamehere]

My tester specifically told me to ignore the advisory ramp speeds - "they are advisory only and not legally binding so you can exceed them without penalty" is what she said. That was for the off ramp mind you, as she hated the testees slamming on their brakes to meet the 40km/h advisory speed on the off ramp, coming down from 100km/h on the highway..

I did mine in Huntsville though so what do I know?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I did mine at the old Malton facility and had to do the same maneuver (get on highway, change over to the left lane, then back to right lane and get off) all within two interchanges on the ...???... 427 or 401 or something.

I failed my first G2 exit test as well, I think because I struggled with parallel parking, reverse parking, and per the tester was not assertive enough on the highway portion.

 

[whydidimakethis]

she hated the testees slamming on their brakes to meet the 40km/h advisory speed on the off ramp, coming down from 100km/h on the highway..

Although if MTO posted 40 as an advisory, usually that means the ramp is pretty tight (loop ramp). Most people probably wouldn't be comfortable driving over 55-60 on those anyway.