Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[lenaitch]

Ontario needs to update its traffic bylaws and change how traffic lights should work as well road speed. More important, drivers being more courtesy. Both cars and 5 ton trucks were weaving in and out of traffic on the 401 and crossing 4 lanes to get to the collectors today. Then, been that way for decades,

Other than Quebec, the east coast province roads have 110 km speed limit and drivers are very courtesy to pedestrians. Very rare I was pass doing 110-120 on the highway

As we waited for an opening in traffic to cross a road in St John that had no crossing point, cars in both direction stop and wave us across the road. This happen a number of times in other cities we visited while I was photographing to the point I wave to the cars to keep on going. Will never see this much in Ontario.

I like the horizontal traffic lights with various colour arrows. More clear and better seen than our ones. Saw them a few decades ago in Miami as well on our trip.

The eastbound lane to the QEW for Dixie Rd close until May 2022 now as traffic been shift to the rebuilt centre lane bridge will the old south bridge is remove to rebuild it. More new retaining wall built for the off ramp to Evens.

Need a 3rd lane on the 401 from end to end as it was a bitch going eastbound on Friday from Quebec to Toronto as well being slow going. Westbound was a lot better until you hit truckers trying to pass someone that you were 10 plus under the speed limit. Then the standard Sunday driver who love driving in the passing lane only.

Traffic a lot worse than before COVID-19 these days in Ontario.

​

I also like the horizontal signals. I think a lot of what you experienced in the Maritimes is a reflection of a more laid back, or at least less aggressive, approach to life. On their major highways, even Quebec 20 and 40 east of Montreal, there isn't anywhere near the traffic volume that we see on the 401 east or west of Toronto or the 400. The one thing I noticed to last time I was down east on their major routes is most people will pull left when approaching any vehicle on the shoulder, emergency/service or otherwise, which I think is a good defensive habit.

The other feature I see on Quebec 20 at least, is the fairly regular rest areas. Not the service centres like we have here which are commercial sites in a sea of pavement; just a parking area with picnic tables, restrooms, maybe a contracted food truck, where you can sit under a tree and shake out the kinks and decompress.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I've always held the position that the reason speeding is such a major problem in this city (and in this province in general), is because our speed limits are set so far below the design speed of the highways and roads. People tend to drive at speeds they're comfortable with, so when you're on a relatively empty highway designed for 140km/h, while the posted speed is only 100, you're naturally going to want to keep increasing your speed to see how far you can get away with, and this has let us to today where unless you're driving 20 over the speed limit, you're doing it wrong. This in turn leads to a lot of dangerous situations as the people that are going 120 interact with people driving at the posted speed limits, which results in people switching lanes more often which helps perpetuate congestion, and can easily lead to more accidents. I went over to Huron County yesterday, and something I noticed there is that all of the longer distance county roads there (specifically County Road 3) are posted at 90km/h, and in general it seems like the speed limits are posted at much higher numbers than elsewhere in the province, and unlike in Toronto, at no point did I ever get the urge to speed or break the limits. If the road is set at 70km/h, that's pretty much the safe speed to drive and going over to 80 or 85 was kind of risky, and it also seemed like everyone else around pretty much followed suit.

The problem is locals complain to councillors about speeding and the easy thing is to replace the speed limit sign - the hard thing is to design the road to be slower. So you get speed limit drops everywhere.

I've noticed it since the downloading that a lot of ex-provincial highways have a ton more speed limit drops than they used to as they are now under municipal control. Just in general small towns have seen more reduced limits in more locations, which run for greater distances outside of the towns, than they did historically. The problem is a lot of people moving to rural properties then complaining that their house fronts onto an 80km/h road.

 

[jamincan]

I also like the horizontal signals. I think a lot of what you experienced in the Maritimes is a reflection of a more laid back, or at least less aggressive, approach to life. On their major highways, even Quebec 20 and 40 east of Montreal, there isn't anywhere near the traffic volume that we see on the 401 east or west of Toronto or the 400. The one thing I noticed to last time I was down east on their major routes is most people will pull left when approaching any vehicle on the shoulder, emergency/service or otherwise, which I think is a good defensive habit.

The other feature I see on Quebec 20 at least, is the fairly regular rest areas. Not the service centres like we have here which are commercial sites in a sea of pavement; just a parking area with picnic tables, restrooms, maybe a contracted food truck, where you can sit under a tree and shake out the kinks and decompress.

A lot of the ServiceOntario centres actually have pretty nice picnic areas, it's just easy to miss if you don't know to look for them.

 

[lead82]

Ontario needs to update its traffic bylaws and change how traffic lights should work as well road speed. More important, drivers being more courtesy. Both cars and 5 ton trucks were weaving in and out of traffic on the 401 and crossing 4 lanes to get to the collectors today. Then, been that way for decades,

Other than Quebec, the east coast province roads have 110 km speed limit and drivers are very courtesy to pedestrians. Very rare I was pass doing 110-120 on the highway

As we waited for an opening in traffic to cross a road in St John that had no crossing point, cars in both direction stop and wave us across the road. This happen a number of times in other cities we visited while I was photographing to the point I wave to the cars to keep on going. Will never see this much in Ontario.

I like the horizontal traffic lights with various colour arrows. More clear and better seen than our ones. Saw them a few decades ago in Miami as well on our trip.

The eastbound lane to the QEW for Dixie Rd close until May 2022 now as traffic been shift to the rebuilt centre lane bridge will the old south bridge is remove to rebuild it. More new retaining wall built for the off ramp to Evens.

Need a 3rd lane on the 401 from end to end as it was a bitch going eastbound on Friday from Quebec to Toronto as well being slow going. Westbound was a lot better until you hit truckers trying to pass someone that you were 10 plus under the speed limit. Then the standard Sunday driver who love driving in the passing lane only.

Traffic a lot worse than before COVID-19 these days in Ontario.

​

On the 3rd lane on the 401, it's definitely needed but there are no plans for that anytime soon. I'd prefer if Ontario simply increased the speed limits on the 401 outside the city to 120km/h and restricted trucks from passing each other on 2 lane roads unless it's an emergency. Also Ontario should seriously start a crack down and start fining people for improper lane discipline. On all 2 and 3 lane roads - most don't keep right. On 3 lane highways, most are in the middle lane not the right lane, the middle lane isn't used to pass those on the right, and the left passing lane is often just as busy for those persistently driving there (even when the other two lanes are empty). Instead of pass and then move right, it's pass and drive. To me this creates a huge inefficiency on our highways because as traffic builds up, speeds drop immediately due to poor culture of not keeping right. Thus adding a 3rd lane on the 401, may have a short-term relief but then our driving culture will reduce the capacity anyway.

When have you ever seen a cop pull someone over for not keeping to the right?

 

[PinkLucy]

A lot of the ServiceOntario centres actually have pretty nice picnic areas, it's just easy to miss if you don't know to look for them.

I think you mean the ONroutes?

 

[ARG1]

On the 3rd lane on the 401, it's definitely needed but there are no plans for that anytime soon. I'd prefer if Ontario simply increased the speed limits on the 401 outside the city to 120km/h and restricted trucks from passing each other on 2 lane roads unless it's an emergency. Also Ontario should seriously start a crack down and start fining people for improper lane discipline. On all 2 and 3 lane roads - most don't keep right. On 3 lane highways, most are in the middle lane not the right lane, the middle lane isn't used to pass those on the right, and the left passing lane is often just as busy for those persistently driving there (even when the other two lanes are empty). Instead of pass and then move right, it's pass and drive. To me this creates a huge inefficiency on our highways because as traffic builds up, speeds drop immediately due to poor culture of not keeping right. Thus adding a 3rd lane on the 401, may have a short-term relief but then our driving culture will reduce the capacity anyway.

When have you ever seen a cop pull someone over for not keeping to the right?

I think on 2 lane highways, people respect the keep right rule a lot more, the issue is that in 3 lane highways with mild congestion, keeping right is a lot more difficult. People tend to want to drive the speed they want, and typically if you're comfortable with 120km/h speeds, you would want to stick to the left lane as much as possible, and shifting right whenever space is available would likely start causing more general traffic swerving and could help further increase Toronto's congestion problems.

 

[lenaitch]

A lot of the ServiceOntario centres actually have pretty nice picnic areas, it's just easy to miss if you don't know to look for them.

True, I had forgotten about the OnRoute sites, because they are utterly forgettable. This is picnicking or unwinding on an institutional level.

Some are better than others, but the two on Hwy 400 are devoid of a single tree.

 

[lenaitch]

On the 3rd lane on the 401, it's definitely needed but there are no plans for that anytime soon. I'd prefer if Ontario simply increased the speed limits on the 401 outside the city to 120km/h and restricted trucks from passing each other on 2 lane roads unless it's an emergency. Also Ontario should seriously start a crack down and start fining people for improper lane discipline. On all 2 and 3 lane roads - most don't keep right. On 3 lane highways, most are in the middle lane not the right lane, the middle lane isn't used to pass those on the right, and the left passing lane is often just as busy for those persistently driving there (even when the other two lanes are empty). Instead of pass and then move right, it's pass and drive. To me this creates a huge inefficiency on our highways because as traffic builds up, speeds drop immediately due to poor culture of not keeping right. Thus adding a 3rd lane on the 401, may have a short-term relief but then our driving culture will reduce the capacity anyway.

When have you ever seen a cop pull someone over for not keeping to the right?

One problem with increasing the base speed to 120 is that, with out electronic speed monitoring (not photo radar here and there), then the de facto speed becomes 130, which is uncomfortable for many and possibly unsustainable for some vehicles. I'm not sure I'd want to tow a boat or travel trailer at 120. Also, a higher limit increases differentials, primarily with trucks but also vehicles with trailers, motorhomes, many of which can't maintain speed on grades and many trucks are corporately limited to the speed they can travel.

It is unrealistic to prohibit trucks from passing each other. One very heavy load would create a parade of trucks in the right hand lane. I realize it can be frustrating and disruptive when a truck doing 106 tries to pass one doing 105.

People camp out in the middle land because that's where they feel comfortable. Too many drivers are either lazy or scared to death to be out there; they don't want to deal with the warriors in Lane 1 (left-most) and don't want to have to pay enough attention to deal with merging traffic in Lane 3, so they camp out in the middle. One problem with that is they are tying up the truck passing lane.

I agree with the enforcement but there are some problems in the wording of many HTA sections, and some courts will simply not convict for some offences. If you're a cop and keep getting certain charges tossed, you take a hint. We had one up here a few years back where a charge of 'unnecessary slow driving' (under the speed limit) was tossed because the defendant convinced the JP that they didn't feel comfortable at the speed limit, ruling that it was, therefore, necessary . There are only so many resources to go around and they focus on the 'big 4' of violations (aggressive, impaired, distracted, speeding).

 

[Voltz]

True, I had forgotten about the OnRoute sites, because they are utterly forgettable. This is picnicking or unwinding on an institutional level.

View attachment 338541
Some are better than others, but the two on Hwy 400 are devoid of a single tree.

The service center on Hwy 400 Southbound at King Road could almost be a small campground. Although I think that one predates the OnRoute Centers.

 

[ARG1]

One problem with increasing the base speed to 120 is that, with out electronic speed monitoring (not photo radar here and there), then the de facto speed becomes 130, which is uncomfortable for many and possibly unsustainable for some vehicles. I'm not sure I'd want to tow a boat or travel trailer at 120. Also, a higher limit increases differentials, primarily with trucks but also vehicles with trailers, motorhomes, many of which can't maintain speed on grades and many trucks are corporately limited to the speed they can travel.

It is unrealistic to prohibit trucks from passing each other. One very heavy load would create a parade of trucks in the right hand lane. I realize it can be frustrating and disruptive when a truck doing 106 tries to pass one doing 105.

People camp out in the middle land because that's where they feel comfortable. Too many drivers are either lazy or scared to death to be out there; they don't want to deal with the warriors in Lane 1 (left-most) and don't want to have to pay enough attention to deal with merging traffic in Lane 3, so they camp out in the middle. One problem with that is they are tying up the truck passing lane.

I agree with the enforcement but there are some problems in the wording of many HTA sections, and some courts will simply not convict for some offences. If you're a cop and keep getting certain charges tossed, you take a hint. We had one up here a few years back where a charge of 'unnecessary slow driving' (under the speed limit) was tossed because the defendant convinced the JP that they didn't feel comfortable at the speed limit, ruling that it was, therefore, necessary . There are only so many resources to go around and they focus on the 'big 4' of violations (aggressive, impaired, distracted, speeding).

> which is uncomfortable for many

This alone explains why this is a good idea. People don't drive 25 above speed limit just because they can get away with it, people drive 25 above speed limit because they're comfortable driving on these highways at around 120-130ish. By setting the speed limit near where most people are comfortable driving at, you significantly reduce the amount of people that speed a significant amount, and thus significantly reduce differentials, and people constantly swerving in traffic trying to maintain their top speed.

 

[lead82]

I agree about the speed difference between trucks and autos if speed limit is set to 120. However we can increase the truck limit then to say 110 to reduce the differential and increase speeding fines for going 130+. On the comfortable feeling, if one can’t be comfortable going 120 then don’t drive in the left lane and keep right, not middle. A lot of it has to do with our culture and poor driving education. This is the hardest to change.

 

[nfitz]

A lot of the ServiceOntario centres actually have pretty nice picnic areas, it's just easy to miss if you don't know to look for them.

I seem to have missed this. I remember some in the 1970s, but I haven't spotted anything since the rebuilds. I'll have to look closer.

Though we did have a picnic of sorts the other day at one ... on the grass between the parking lot and the entry road. And I see a lots of families eating in cars, with all the doors open - few wanting to eat inside, even though it's now allowed.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In 1968, the maximum speed limit for freeways was raised to 70 mph (110 km/h). In 1975, the maximum speed limit for freeways was reduced to 60 mph, because of the oil embargo. Some highways have raised their limits to 110 km/h, even though the highways are designed for speeds OVER 120 km/h.

While the oil embargo is long passed, we also have more fuel efficient vehicles, hybrids, and electric vehicles. We should be able to increase the speed limits on freeways to 110 or even 120 km/h.

We can't rely on the fuel tax as source of revenue for building highways, tolls are the future.

 

[lenaitch]

> which is uncomfortable for many

This alone explains why this is a good idea. People don't drive 25 above speed limit just because they can get away with it, people drive 25 above speed limit because they're comfortable driving on these highways at around 120-130ish. By setting the speed limit near where most people are comfortable driving at, you significantly reduce the amount of people that speed a significant amount, and thus significantly reduce differentials, and people constantly swerving in traffic trying to maintain their top speed.

Speed differentials will always exist so long as you have a mix of vehicle types and driving abilities (notwithstanding Ontario low driver qualifications - which I totally agree with). Many heavy transports can't maintain the current speed limit on long grades, let alone a higher limit; vehicles pulling trailers, a city dweller who heads out on vacation once or twice a year, etc. I drive a big, highway cruiser motorcycle that is easily capable of doing 120 all day - but it's tiring, so I don't. Somebody doing 120 is approached by somebody doing 130 - somebody has to change lanes.

Some would say that folks who can't maintain the speed limit should simply use an arterial route, but the reality is that isn't going to happen and, in areas like 400 and 11 north, there is no viable alternative.

 

[afransen]

Ontario needs to update its traffic bylaws and change how traffic lights should work as well road speed. More important, drivers being more courtesy. Both cars and 5 ton trucks were weaving in and out of traffic on the 401 and crossing 4 lanes to get to the collectors today. Then, been that way for decades,

Other than Quebec, the east coast province roads have 110 km speed limit and drivers are very courtesy to pedestrians. Very rare I was pass doing 110-120 on the highway

As we waited for an opening in traffic to cross a road in St John that had no crossing point, cars in both direction stop and wave us across the road. This happen a number of times in other cities we visited while I was photographing to the point I wave to the cars to keep on going. Will never see this much in Ontario.

I like the horizontal traffic lights with various colour arrows. More clear and better seen than our ones. Saw them a few decades ago in Miami as well on our trip.

The eastbound lane to the QEW for Dixie Rd close until May 2022 now as traffic been shift to the rebuilt centre lane bridge will the old south bridge is remove to rebuild it. More new retaining wall built for the off ramp to Evens.

Need a 3rd lane on the 401 from end to end as it was a bitch going eastbound on Friday from Quebec to Toronto as well being slow going. Westbound was a lot better until you hit truckers trying to pass someone that you were 10 plus under the speed limit. Then the standard Sunday driver who love driving in the passing lane only.

Traffic a lot worse than before COVID-19 these days in Ontario.

​

If we're changing traffic signal lights, I would prefer Netherlands style near-side lights to incentivize drivers not to overshoot into the sidewalk.