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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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Back on topic. Any speculation about how council will vote on the Gardiner? There's not much time till there needs to be a vote. Will they keep it or strap TNT explosives to the thing?
 
ssiguy2 said:
Because no matter what they decide to do with the Gardiner it will have to entail some form of planning of rail service along the rail corridor that runs right beside it. They can't bury the Gardiner without vastly inproving the Lakeshore GO corridor with subway level service during it's long construction. If they try to keep the Gardiner open while tunneling that means that the tunnel or new high cable Gardiner bridge will have to go over the rail lines as it can't go anywhere else due to all the condos.

There is also no way in hell that Toronto or Metrolinx are going to invest in such huge sums to fix the Gardiner without building a DRL. This is also one area where the City has the upper hand because it is a city road and therefore can tell Metrolinx they will close the Gardiner unless the money for a DRL is immediate and not on some imaginary timeline. Toronto could easily do this because very few Torontonians actually use it. The Gardiner is just the QEW with a different name.
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Please read the city reports - I have posted them for a reason. The western leg of the Gardiner is getting repaired, not removed: the section East of Jarvis is subjected to an EA that doesn't guarantee removal, much less burial (in all likelihood it will be relocated on the ground). For the western leg, they are planning to do the repair one lane at a time, which had been in practice for years. The budget for the repair is in the tune of 40M/year over a decade. What you have described is not the reality as it is happening.

AoD
 
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ssiguy2 said:
One very good thing about the Gardiner debate is that it's falling down. If it wasn't the debate would continue for another 20 years but falling concrete will force the politicians and bureaucrats to not only create a firm plan but also had to pay for it regardless of what that plan is.

The falling down of the Gardiner is one of the best things that could happen to Toronto's Waterfront, the DRL, and the Gardiner itslef. Those falling chunks of concrete is forcing the city to make a doable and agreed upon plan and building it at lightening speed. This is one decision that cannot be filed under the "to do list" and it requires all parties to put aside their ideological difference to resolve the issue before the engineers resolve it for them.

It's funny how the elevated Gardiner which most transit advocates hate, has become the impetus for transit building. Who would have ever imagined that elevated roadway that is the antithesis of modern urban planning could turn into the best chance Toronto has had in decades of getting the ever elusive DRL. The "Friends of the Gardiner" may turn out to be the best friends transit advocates have ever had.
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Its falling should be good news but it didn't turn out to be. Politicians are still proposing to fix the damn thing bit and bit, throwing worse money after bad. Nobody has the guts to make a big and wise decision, but using "traffic" as an excuse to avoid it.

I don't believe for a second Toronto can't function properly without the Gardiner. For those who come to downtown from elsewhere, they can take the DVP richmond exit, or Strachan from the west. For those who just pass by, who cares. Why the hell should they pass by a big city just to get to a small one anyway. The portion east of Strachan should just be demolished.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Toronto is nice, if you actually get around to seeing all of it. But you won't because the transit is crap as the highways end in random places.
.
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exactement!

People always talk about how transit friendly Toronto is. It is not. Outside downtown, taking the transit to somewhere not on the subway line is a nightmare. It is so hard to get anywhere that I stop trying. And when I need to, I just rent a car.
Yep, sometimes TTC = Take The Car.
 
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bleu said:
exactement!

People always talk about how transit friendly Toronto is. It is not. Outside downtown, taking the transit to somewhere not only the subway line is a nightmare. It is so hard to get anywhere that I stop trying. And when I need to, I just rent a car.
Yep, sometimes TTC = Take The Car.
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See that's why sometimes I would love nothing more than subways everywhere a) because its faster, and b) because not everyone is going downtown and we need more trunk lines. Toronto can't just be about downtown, but the suburbs need to wake up as well. Everyone is at fault.
 
Personally, I think the Gardiner east of Yonge/Church is toast.

It is a horrid barrier to the Waterfront and it's traffic levels drop off dramatically coming from the QEW. One thing I think is out of the question no matter what they do is building a tunnel. Besides the massive costs, it would be nearly impossible west of Yonge because there is no available land at all...........it's a freeway surrounded by condos next to water and the busiest rail corridor in the country.

What I said ages ago I still believe is the best option for Toronto..........sell the whole damn highway for a song and let the private company charge whatever the hell they can get away with. The big caveat would be that they would have to completely tear down the Yonge/Church to DVP section, clean it up, and rehabilitate it to allow for greespace, apts etc.

The city would get rid of the ongoing Gardiner expense, not have to pay for refurbishment, and get the Yonge/Church to DVP section turned into a liveable urban enviornment free of charge. Toronto would actually make money as the land from the torn down Gardiner East sections could be sold to developers to help pay for the Portland/DonLands LRT and the city would get ongoing property tax revenue from the new condos that would go up and development fees.
 
ssiguy2 said:
What I said ages ago I still believe is the best option for Toronto..........sell the whole damn highway for a song and let the private company charge whatever the hell they can get away with.
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Strap TNT to the thing, blow it up and call it a day. It's cheap and great show for the kids!
 
ssiguy2 said:
Meanwhile back at the Gardiner.........

One very good thing about the Gardiner debate is that it's falling down. If it wasn't the debate would continue for another 20 years but falling concrete will force the politicians and bureaucrats to not only create a firm plan but also had to pay for it regardless of what that plan is.

The falling down of the Gardiner is one of the best things that could happen to Toronto's Waterfront, the DRL, and the Gardiner itslef. Those falling chunks of concrete is forcing the city to make a doable and agreed upon plan and building it at lightening speed. This is one decision that cannot be filed under the "to do list" and it requires all parties to put aside their ideological difference to resolve the issue before the engineers resolve it for them.

It's funny how the elevated Gardiner which most transit advocates hate, has become the impetus for transit building. Who would have ever imagined that elevated roadway that is the antithesis of modern urban planning could turn into the best chance Toronto has had in decades of getting the ever elusive DRL. The "Friends of the Gardiner" may turn out to be the best friends transit advocates have ever had.
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Even if some of the revenue tools (such as a toll on the Gardiner & Don Valley) would be going to the city highway and road upkeep, most people don't want to pay for it. They want it for free.

cimetrolinxpoll5.jpg


See this link.

Since they don't want to pay for their upkeep, better to tear it down. Maybe cheaper than keeping it.
 

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I should establish a brigade of like-minded sappers and do everyone a favour. Bingo, bango.
I volunteer to fix the problem for free. Stop the gravy train: allow me to "fix" the Gardiner at no cost to taxpayers! Ford et al should be all over my offer. I'll even let the city sell the rebar as scrap. So, taxpayers make a profit. Win-win, ne c'est pas?
 
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ssiguy2 said:
Personally, I think the Gardiner east of Yonge/Church is toast.

It is a horrid barrier to the Waterfront and it's traffic levels drop off dramatically coming from the QEW. One thing I think is out of the question no matter what they do is building a tunnel. Besides the massive costs, it would be nearly impossible west of Yonge because there is no available land at all...........it's a freeway surrounded by condos next to water and the busiest rail corridor in the country.
Click to expand...

This is what always cracks me up. The Gardiner is supposedly a horrid barrier to the waterfront, yet the rail corridor that's right beside it, isn't. Also, if they tear out the eastern portion of the Gardiner all the DVP & Gardiner travel will empty onto Lakeshore Blvd, making it a major thoroughfare, with more lanes and many more cars - how is that an improvement?

Also, if the report comes out favoring tearing the Gardiner down, you know Ford will be against it. And who uses these highways the most after 905ers? Ford's bread and butter suburban voters. This will become a major election issue (as it should be) and Ford will regain a lot of supporters (grudgingly) because of this. Ford's base is getting softer, but this will only reinforce it.

I'd prefer if it was added as a referendum question on the next municipal election ballot and let the chips fall where they may.
 
As I stated before, if Torontonians are too cheap to contribute to their infrastructure they always have the option of bringing in a $50 yearly pass for Torontonians but anyone outside the city pays a full toll.
 
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