Fred.S
Active Member
Maybe we can have the Gardiner just veer south and go down into the lake. That would eventually clear up traffic pretty good...
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
I had figured the cost closer to +$700M for the entire project given the need to construct onramps on the bridge structure, the underpass at Wellington (+$75M), the need to acquire property, and the need to keep Spadina, the rail corridor and Gardiner active during the construction process as to not cause a traffic nightmare downtown (unless of course, this is your intention
). Decking over of the rail corridors as well as the construction of the WWLRT could all occur at independently of the project to spread out costs.I would hope that any major work on the Gardiner would also include some sort of congestion-sensitive tolling to help recoup some of the construction and maintenance cost.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
You're one of those people who drowned their Sims, aren't you?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Don't be too quick to dismiss a Gardiner running into the lake.
Remember, Ford takes the Gardiner to work every morning from Etobiko.
Remember, Ford takes the Gardiner to work every morning from Etobiko.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
He couldn't find the money to rebuild the Gardiner or bury it, much less run a new highway through the lake. That's not even mentioning the EA that will chew him up for the rest of eternity.
In any case, the Western stretch of Gardiner is staying put - the only question remaining is what to do with the section east of Jarvis.
AoD
In any case, the Western stretch of Gardiner is staying put - the only question remaining is what to do with the section east of Jarvis.
AoD
junior43
Active Member
For me it's not even a question, anything they do, in removing any part of the gardiner at this time is absolute chaos. In an anarchist kinda way I find it appealing. In a logical sense, I find it truly scary.
But, it would make sense for this city. Spend billions on the west donlands, then drop all the traffic onto surface routes surrounding it. Typical Toronto Planning..........
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
junior43:
Removing or renewing a piece of infrastructure while it is being used will be chaotic regardless of time. It's not really a reason not to do it though because the alternatives are that much worse.
As to traffic in the West Donlands - it wasn't like the area (on the periphery) is stranger to traffic. Most of those cars are destined for the core, and it has to get off the Gardiner at some point. That's pretty much a reality of planning in general.
AoD
Removing or renewing a piece of infrastructure while it is being used will be chaotic regardless of time. It's not really a reason not to do it though because the alternatives are that much worse.
As to traffic in the West Donlands - it wasn't like the area (on the periphery) is stranger to traffic. Most of those cars are destined for the core, and it has to get off the Gardiner at some point. That's pretty much a reality of planning in general.
AoD
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bleu
Banned
Do we have any evidence that if Gardiner is removed, traffic will be a chaos?? Or it is all just subjective guess - because it is busy so removing it must lead to chaos?
Often people quickly adjust to alternative travel patterns. For example, traffic on Richmond and Adelaide is never too busy and I have never seen congestion on these two streets during rush hours. There are things drivers can do. Not everyone is stupid enough to think since Gardiner is gone, all I can do is to stick to Lake Shore Blvd, where Gardiner originally was.
In doing any long term improvement, you must be willing to pay a short term price. You can't expect a perfect solution sacrificing nothing. Ask Bostonians whether the big dig is worth it, most will say yes, despite the complaint when it was happening.
We can't do this because of this and that, so let's keep it as it is. This is typical Toronto thinking. We'd rather let the negative scare us into doing nothing, other than really weigh the pros and cons and make a good decision that's the best for the long term interest of the city and its people.
Toronto can't live without the gardiner otherwise where will the car go? keeping tell us this forever and we will be stuck with this hideous thing forever until it collapsed someday killing thousands of lives.
Often people quickly adjust to alternative travel patterns. For example, traffic on Richmond and Adelaide is never too busy and I have never seen congestion on these two streets during rush hours. There are things drivers can do. Not everyone is stupid enough to think since Gardiner is gone, all I can do is to stick to Lake Shore Blvd, where Gardiner originally was.
In doing any long term improvement, you must be willing to pay a short term price. You can't expect a perfect solution sacrificing nothing. Ask Bostonians whether the big dig is worth it, most will say yes, despite the complaint when it was happening.
We can't do this because of this and that, so let's keep it as it is. This is typical Toronto thinking. We'd rather let the negative scare us into doing nothing, other than really weigh the pros and cons and make a good decision that's the best for the long term interest of the city and its people.
Toronto can't live without the gardiner otherwise where will the car go? keeping tell us this forever and we will be stuck with this hideous thing forever until it collapsed someday killing thousands of lives.
junior43
Active Member
Well, removing the Gardiner from Stachan east is a good way to find out....or not. Boston worked out, because they replaced an above ground freeway with a below ground freeway. Everyone here is just talking about removing a freeweay.
I'm also willimg to spend billions on the western half of the Gardiner to just east of Yonge in a %100 renovation. It is beyond necessary to have that link. I can see in 15+ years not needing the eastern half, but until then it nees to be maintained. The deal should be made now with that target. (Ford will never do this of course, but this deal can be made in two years - in this city, what's a couple years????????)
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
The situation in Boston is somewhat different from Toronto - a significant amount of traffic through the Central Artery is through traffic. That's not the case here.
AoD
AoD
junior43
Active Member
I'm all for a complete shut down if it's to rebuild the western portion of the Gardiner. (short term pain, tong term gain) The eastern half is dying, but it's not sufficiently dead yet to merit mercy killling - it needs another 15 years to die.
It would also be an interesting experiment. Shut down the entire Gardiner for July. (In theory less drivers, since teacher's are off) And see what commute times turn into.......I think you'd quickly find out how important the Gardiner is. If not in the municipal election, definitely in the provincial one.
bleu
Banned
yeah, let's.
I am positive the city will function. There will be traffic jams, but it is not like it goes smoothly now. Everytime I pass gardiner at Spadina it is like a zoo, obviously something is not working, and it is definitely NOT because we don't have enough highways or there are too many cars. It is the horrible design or roads and ramps that lead to such a mess almost any time of the day.
junior43
Active Member
Too true, but now all that Gardiner traffic is in your face, your were complaining about it before the extra cars showed up. Enjoy the future, it's more of the same...... I coulda sworn McGuinty had a pledge to reduce commute times. How does removing any portion of the Gardiner achieve that????
bleu
Banned
reduce commute time?
let me suggest again for the 100th time, live closer to work. works 100 times more effective than expecting a great subway/highway system.
yeah, you will say many people can't etc, the truth is, they can't let go their big detached house with a deck a yard all that sort of suburban features.
junior43
Active Member
Oh your so right, it's just that those pesky family obligations keep getting in the way. They love their big yard, it has nothing to do with the fact their parents (and built in baby sitters live in the 'hood. - that couldn't be it.)
Ya, you're right, it has nothing to do with family and the fact they have better schools in the 'burbs, it's just stone cold commute times that matter. Strangers raising your kids is always better then relatives......ahem.......
Some people like living in shoe boxes in the sky, some don't. Period.
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