steveintoronto
Superstar
Because the Con MPPs couldn't put two and two together...(It's not in the old sex-ed curriculum)
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Premier Doug Ford's Ontario
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Northern Light
Superstar
My google fu is usually pretty good......
But I couldn't come up with overall numbers any more recent than 2009.
what I saw for that year was 20,000 more applications than spots.
My impression looking at a sample of different schools would be:
There are open undergrad spots in several less popular Ontario schools such as Trent, Nippissing, Algoma and Windsor.
There are fewer total spots across ON than students, but not by a huge disparity.
However, there are substantially fewer spots in the GTA than there are applications.
So if you don't think students should be compelled to endure the costs of residence, this could be a problem
There are also too few residences to accommodate every student wishing same.
There is a profound shortage of Grad spots (Master/Phd/Professional programs) vs applicants; especially true in Medicine.
Though it should be said that ON has a surplus of teachers.
steveintoronto
Superstar
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Gee, Doug, which little guy are you fighting for? Obviously not the one who makes minimum wage or the one who just lost sick days.
lenaitch
Senior Member
That has always struck me as curious. Certainly in terms of general arts programs, is the motivation to get a post secondary education or a degree from a particularly institution that may have a higher status? In terms of average entering grades, these place are also some the easiest to get into. Whatever happened to 'going off' to university? Financial incentives and supports have probably never been higher, with the possible exception of returning vets after the wars.
In terms of grad slots, at least in terms of medicine, the government has a lot of influence on those numbers. I don't know about the other fields.
I wonder about the demand vs. vacancies in community colleges and trade school. Many of the construction trades are either screaming for people or soon will be.
Northern Light
Superstar
I think a lot of the issue is cost, residence and meal plans are not cheap, living away from home inflates the bill by $10,000 or more (that's based on a double room, not private which would be more) .
Aside from that, bigger institutions are simply better known, closer to family in many cases, your more likely to know someone that went there, they do tend to have more cache and more amenities and greater breadth of programs as well.
But I think cost is the single biggest factor by far.
Given current OSAP for undergrads; your tuition for undergrad at U of T as a commuter student would be about $500 per year. (after OSAP grants)
But go to Nippissing and your cost is $500 + $10,000 or more, plus the cost of the bus back to family for holidays and such. Strong incentive to stay close to home.
steveintoronto
Superstar
^It is a *huge* cost saving and an advantage for many to be able to still live at 'Mom and Pop's' and attend Uni/College. It must be remembered that many of the courses being offered by these Uni/Community College Combos are more practical in nature than what's taught at the main campus.
Jasmine18
Senior Member
I dont buy that each party has a lock on smart and stupid voters and frankly find it is a very demeaning argument to have.
Like many people who voted For Trudeau did so because of pot, his rock star personality and his last name and wanted Harper out.
In the end, the success of many politicians is not based on complex policy but frankly on simple promises, desire for change and personality.
Ford Had simple promises, people hated Wynne and Fords "flawed" personality appeals to a certain section of voters.
I find calling each other stupid will just lead us to the tribalism that exists in the USA and I ask you guys, you really want that in Canada lol?
Like many people who voted For Trudeau did so because of pot, his rock star personality and his last name and wanted Harper out.
In the end, the success of many politicians is not based on complex policy but frankly on simple promises, desire for change and personality.
Ford Had simple promises, people hated Wynne and Fords "flawed" personality appeals to a certain section of voters.
I find calling each other stupid will just lead us to the tribalism that exists in the USA and I ask you guys, you really want that in Canada lol?
syn
Senior Member
That's a good estimate.
According to a Maclean's survey, the total average cost for a University student living away from home was nearly $20,000 a year (including tutition).
That $40,000 in savings over the course of a degree is huge.
Going away to University was much more of a possibility 40 years ago when tuition fees were incredibly low, along with a much lower cost of living.
steveintoronto
Superstar
This is especially telling:
The Globe and Mail hosted a really self-serving mean spirited and misleading opinion piece today:
It is full of misinformation, some of it shockingly so considering who wrote it. It will be rebuffed by others featured in the Globe the next few days.
Doug Ford was right to cancel funding for new university campuses LEO GROARKE
One of the most glaring inaccuracies is the intimation that Ontario is fully funding these institutions. It isn't, far from it, but the amount is still crucial, especially in light of PCs themselves campaigning that the funding was definitely committed, and would continue to be so. Many of the courses were to be unique ones with a pressing need for them, something else Groarke misses.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Thing is, we're not cutting back at those schools to free up funds at schools we want to fund.
Which is why this it the rare policy I actually agree with Ford on. I think these campuses were part of an outdated postsecondary education policy from the previous government that requires some rethink. Now, whether Ford will actually follow through and do a thorough review is another matter.
We really need to have a serious conversation on what the goals of our postsecondary sector should be, what kinds of graduates they are producing and what skills we expect them to have. At present, I feel like our system is rather schizophrenic. On one hand we pump out hundreds of thousands of BAs and BScs whose degrees are worth about the same as a high school diploma from a generation ago, all under the guise of the idea that educated citizens are good for society and the economy. And on the other hand, we're constantly talking about how we need to send more students to community college and trades for practical programs, while not actually making a serious effort to divert substantial proportions of students to these alternatives.
It's not just the system itself. We need to talk about infrastructure. For example, the Brampton and Milton campuses at 2000 students each were closer in size to an American sized high school. That Laurier-Conestoga tie up in Milton was the most amorphous. Sounded even less like it was about education than it was about development for Milton with the Milton Education Village. These proposals would have drawn resources from the existing campuses while offering limited programs. Is it really worthwhile to draw resources from two existing institutions when both of those are commutable from the community in question? For example, Ryerson has a fantastic IT and Comp Sci program at the downtown campus. And wants to build a national cybersecurity studies centre in Brampton. I question the value of splitting resources like this. Seriously, of all places to put a national centre for cybersecurity...why Brampton?
The York Markham campus was a far more sound offering. They were going to offer 20 programs and at over 4000 students would be much closer to real university campus. And they have pledged to go ahead with their plans. Aside from the fact that York has strong ties with industry in York Region and is actually leveraging off that.
The question is why build a new campus. Why not expand offerings at existing campuses? And ultimately, some of these new campuses were to have limited program offerings, so the argument that students wouldn't have to commute as much is bunk. Especially on the return for the student. Do you really get a good education avoiding an hour commute while losing access to the whole breadth of courses and instructors the main campus offers?
Indeed. But even the previous government didn't want to touch this one. Because apparently development was a higher priority than education for the postsecondary capital investments, looking at some of these proposals.
Ultimately, it's not the number of grads that matter, but the the quality of them. In the information age, 1 highly skilled programmer is worth 10 mediocre coders. Ignoring this reality is not going to serve us economically in the long run. We need to produce not just a decent number of grads, but we need to deploy resources to produce the right type and quality of graduates. Saving a handful of students time on commuting to offer them more limited programs, does not, prima facie, seem the best direction to go.
Do I think Ford is going to deliver great things on postsecondary education? Heck, no. But I'm okay with deferring some spending so that we can talk about in 4 years when there's a government willing to actually take conduct a proper, comprehensive review of the system.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
True. It costs a lot to go to university/college away from home. But that's not what we are talking about here. We're talking about building campuses in the GTA, to extend programs from the existing campuses to these satellite locations. In effect, this was mostly about spending $300+ million to save some students commuting time and to spur on development in these communities apparently.
York is going ahead:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...sh-ahead-with-markham-campus-despite-funding/
So good chance the other two might. And if that happens, it's sort of a win for the provincial conservatives anyway. These will get built without them having pitched in much. Heck, maybe the feds will pick up the tab. Somebody should check out how close the federal ridings are in the area.
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Northern Light
Superstar
That was in reply to another poster, who was wondering why more students don't travel to institutions further afield.
Partially true.
I think if we accept that there is a justification for more total undergrad spaces in the GTA, then its a question of how to accommodate that.
Certainly York has ample room for growth on its main campus. U of T, St. George is maxed out, literally, and in fact U of T is considering reducing undergrad capacity at St. George to make room for more Grad programs.
Ryerson still has a bit more room to play with, given they are considering a tear-down of Kerr hall, adding at least one tower as part of that, plus the new space in YSL.
But that leaves the 2 suburban U of T campuses, with Mississauga also not far from total build out.
How much GTA growth is required? I'd wager we're about 10000 undergrad spots short, as it stands.
I think new campuses are a fair consideration. Though I completely agree that Milton/Laurier does not make sense.
Mind you, I might make a serious argument about relocating both of the U of T suburban campuses instead as I think both are very poorly situated, alternate sites might be better way to improve access and expand capacity.