Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[ksun]

By your logic, the jobs are unnecessary.

The reduction in jobs would have real impacts. Do we really want to relive the Harris cuts again, and what that did to society? Everything has been cut to the bone in the last 20 years. So bigger class sizes. Some savings won't actually help the bottom line. Privatizing LCBO for example, won't decrease the number of employees much ... and would not save government any money on the operational budget.

Jobs are necessary only when they create value. You can pay a homeless guy $2000 a month to sit on the curb doing nothing. That's a paying job but is it?
Everything has been cut to the bone? Ontario's public sector increased by 27% in terms of government jobs since 2002 while manufacturing jobs declined by 27%. (there are official numbers) Tell me, what are those government jobs for when Ontario's population increased by 11%?

As to LCBO, the point is not about jobs. It is about efficiency. Do you think as a monopolier, the government can run the booze business efficiently? When the government doesn't run a business well, every consumer is paying more an artificially high price just so LCBO employees can enjoy their comfortable job security and good benefits.

 

[Adjei]

Hudak's numbers drops, from a majority as of yesterday to now basically in a tie, how reliable are these polls:

http://www.threehundredeight.com/

 

[TOareaFan]

Back to Hudak and transit Just saw a quote from his presser today that says:

"We will put the province in charge of all rail-based transit and major highways in the GTA."

This sounds like:

a) ML (or something like it) will continue
b) Local rail based rapid transit (TTC subways and LRTs, Peel LRT) will be uploaded
c) Roads such as DVP, Gardiner and Allen will also be uploaded.

 

[nfitz]

Everything has been cut to the bone? Ontario's public sector increased by 27% in terms of government jobs since 2002 while manufacturing jobs declined by 27%. (there are official numbers) Tell me, what are those government jobs for when Ontario's population increased by 11%?

Do you have a breakdown? As far as I know, most of these increases beyond the population increase are in the education and health sectors. Is this where we want to make cuts?

As to LCBO, the point is not about jobs. It is about efficiency. Do you think as a monopolier, the government can run the booze business efficiently? When the government doesn't run a business well, every consumer is paying more an artificially high price just so LCBO employees can enjoy their comfortable job security and good benefits.

I'm not opposed to moving both beer and liquor sales to corner stores. Though perhaps Hudak's 100,000 cuts don't include the LCBO ... I don't know, the more time passes, I don't think they do.

 

[TOareaFan]

Do you have a breakdown? As far as I know, most of these increases beyond the population increase are in the education and health sectors. Is this where we want to make cuts?

Here is another quote from the Hudak event that we should, as a province, at least think about:

"In Ontario, we spend $8.5 billion more on education than we did 10 years ago, to teach 250,000 fewer students."

 

[andrewpmk]

Back to Hudak and transit Just saw a quote from his presser today that says:

"We will put the province in charge of all rail-based transit and major highways in the GTA."

This sounds like:

a) ML (or something like it) will continue
b) Local rail based rapid transit (TTC subways and LRTs, KW LRT, Hamilton LRT, Ottawa LRT, Peel LRT) will be uploaded
c) Roads such as DVP, Gardiner and Allen will also be uploaded.

I find this hard to believe. Mike Harris did the opposite when the PCs were last in power, downloading the eastern end of the QEW (now Gardiner) for example. I suppose it is possible this could happen under the condition that municipalities pay for part of the maintenance costs (as a political ploy to prevent Olivia Chow from tearing down the Gardiner?) but I doubt it. And of course no LRT will ever be built under Hudak (I assume this includes the eastern section of Eglinton which hasn't been tendered yet). Hudak's 100,000 layoffs plan = cut Metrolinx, cut TTC, cut, cut, cut.

"In Ontario, we spend $8.5 billion more on education than we did 10 years ago, to teach 250,000 fewer students."

Probably because of a combination of education underfunding under Mike Harris and inflation.

 

[sno man]

Jobs are necessary only when they create value. You can pay a homeless guy $2000 a month to sit on the curb doing nothing. That's a paying job but is it?
Everything has been cut to the bone? Ontario's public sector increased by 27% in terms of government jobs since 2002 while manufacturing jobs declined by 27%. (there are official numbers) Tell me, what are those government jobs for when Ontario's population increased by 11%?

As to LCBO, the point is not about jobs. It is about efficiency. Do you think as a monopolier, the government can run the booze business efficiently? When the government doesn't run a business well, every consumer is paying more an artificially high price just so LCBO employees can enjoy their comfortable job security and good benefits.

The LCBO has high prices for the same reason cigarettes cost so much. To discourage over consumption. There's efficiency in scale. LCBO is the largest distributor in NA.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Liberals would form majority government (if an election were held today) after Hudak's 100,000 job elimination announcement (Forum)

I don't believe this for a second. There must be something wrong with Forum's seat projection methodology.

 

[andrewpmk]

Jobs are necessary only when they create value. You can pay a homeless guy $2000 a month to sit on the curb doing nothing. That's a paying job but is it?
Everything has been cut to the bone? Ontario's public sector increased by 27% in terms of government jobs since 2002 while manufacturing jobs declined by 27%. (there are official numbers) Tell me, what are those government jobs for when Ontario's population increased by 11%?

Government jobs increased 27% since 2002 to recover from Mike Harris underfunding. The decline of manufacturing (and the reason it is worse in Ontario than in the US) is mostly caused by the high Canadian dollar; Hudak exaggerates the effect of high electricity prices.

 

[Translude15]

You have described quite well how wages and compensation are determined in the world not governed by collectively bargained contracts. It is not how it is done when there is a collective agreement. Jobs of various and different requirements are banded together and assigned grades/categories and the wage ranges are set.

To the person that suggested a secretary would earn $16k outside of government....that is also wrong....that would be below minimum wage for a full time position...but to suggest that (using the example cited) a secretarial/admin wage needs to be set at $55k to get a qualified person to fill the position is ludicrous.

Where I work, we have a lot of entry level clerical positions and we fill them and people seem to stay in them for a decent length of time (eventually some move up into other positions and others move on to other companies but there is no inordinate turnover in those positions)....we also have a very active HR department that annually surveys the market to make sure that all of our positions are compensated in line with market conditions...as much as we don't like overpaying we also do not fancy the idea of paying a wage that leads to turnover and instibility.....our entry level positions (and department secretarial work falls into that category here) pay between $27,500 and $30,000.

I am not anti-union (never been in one but I do understand they are part of our system and, perhaps, in some situations necessary)....but we must understand that one of the effects of a collective bargaining situation is that some jobs end up being paid more than they are in the non-union sector because of the process. If, as cited above, we are paying $55k for secretarial/admin positions then, yes, we are paying above market....and perhaps considerably so.

Thank you TOareaFan. Nobody is suggesting a secretary/EA should be working for less than minimum wage, but a starting salary for that kind of position in a non-governmental setting starts at the high 20-$30,000 range. At my company, that kind of entry-level position starts at $35,000 a year.

Also, I don't believe the actually job position from the WSIB was a "secretary" per se. I can't even remember the exact job title but based on the job description my GF sent me it was essentially an entry-level secretarial/admin position based on the requirements.

Again, Hudak's plan is pre-election, populist rhetoric, but plenty of government positions exist with severely inflated wages paid for by the public purse. I understand we're all one for an equitable society, but let's not kid ourselves with the preponderance of excessive government wages at all levels. That isn't truly fair.

 

[nfitz]

Here is another quote from the Hudak event that we should, as a province, at least think about:

"In Ontario, we spend $8.5 billion more on education than we did 10 years ago, to teach 250,000 fewer students."

250,000 fewer students? Last year (2012-2013) there were 1,346,590 elementary students and 684,615 high school students for a total of 2,031,205 students.

Ten years earlier (2002-2003) there were 1,451,141 elementary students and 713,799 high school students for a total of 2,164,940 students. That's 130,000 less, not 250,000 less.

Not sure about the other numbers, but why is he lying about very simple to verify numbers?

Perhaps he's including Universities? No ... because Ontario University enrollment has increased by over 100,000 in the same amount of time.

 

[TOareaFan]

I find this hard to believe. Mike Harris did the opposite when the PCs were last in power,

Not aimed at you (because I hear it everywhere) but this is the part of the election rhetoric that I find the most frustrating "because Harris did "X", Hudak will do the same. It is as silly a statement as "McGuinty spent $1B cancelling gas plants....Wynne will do it again" or "Rae forced all public service workers to take unpaid days off....so Horwath will do that too".

And of course no LRT will ever be built under Hudak (I assume this includes the eastern section of Eglinton which hasn't been tendered yet).

I take it that it means any new and existing rail based lines...whether he builds any new or not.

Probably because of a combination of education underfunding under Mike Harris and inflation.

It represents a massive increase in per student funding.

 

[nfitz]

Not aimed at you (because I hear it everywhere) but this is the part of the election rhetoric that I find the most frustrating "because Harris did "X", Hudak will do the same.

To be fair Harris flip-flopped, downloading GO Transit after the first election, and then he uploading after the second!

 

[Translude15]

The LCBO has high prices for the same reason cigarettes cost so much. To discourage over consumption. There's efficiency in scale. LCBO is the largest distributor in NA.

From the LCBO website:

"In setting retail prices for the products it sells, the LCBO strives to balance several key elements of its mandate.

Promoting social responsibility in the sale and consumption of beverage alcohol

Providing excellent customer service, including offering customers a broad product selection and value at all price points

Generating maximum profit to fund government programs and priorities."

Essentially, 1) In the name of public good, the Nanny state aims to curb alcohol consumption through its pricing and 2) (as ksun indicated) ensure employees can enjoy their comfortable job security and good benefits.

Also, note the LCBO's marketing campaigns. How else are they able afford the distribution of those nice, over sized, glossy advertising pamphlets every other week and come up with catchy radio ads?

 

[Translude15]

250,000 fewer students? Last year (2012-2013) there were 1,346,590 elementary students and 684,615 high school students for a total of 2,031,205 students.

Ten years earlier (2002-2003) there were 1,451,141 elementary students and 713,799 high school students for a total of 2,164,940 students. That's 130,000 less, not 250,000 less.

Not sure about the other numbers, but why is he lying about very simple to verify numbers?

Perhaps he's including Universities? No ... because Ontario University enrollment has increased by over 100,000 in the same amount of time.

Ontario colleges?