Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[TOareaFan]

250,000 fewer students? Last year (2012-2013) there were 1,346,590 elementary students and 684,615 high school students for a total of 2,031,205 students.

Ten years earlier (2002-2003) there were 1,451,141 elementary students and 713,799 high school students for a total of 2,164,940 students. That's 130,000 less, not 250,000 less.

Not sure about the other numbers, but why is he lying about very simple to verify numbers?

Perhaps he's including Universities? No ... because Ontario University enrollment has increased by over 100,000 in the same amount of time.

Thanks for the links.

If his numbers are wrong, I am sure there are going to be a host of journalists and interested groups challenging him on that!

Possible answers are:

1) He is wrong and has "rounded up for political effect"
2) He has the 2013/2104 numbers
3) These notes from the first link you posted....."As reported by schools in Ontario School Information System (OnSIS), 2012-2013ǂ*. ǂ (data for 2012-2013 is preliminary)." "* Data is not strictly comparable to years prior to 2006-07 due to a change in data collection methods in 2006-07."

 

[nfitz]

Ontario colleges?

They only seem to have grown, like Universities. But in any case, I can't imagine they've shrunk the 100,000 that Universities have grown. But I don't have the numbers at hand.

 

[TOareaFan]

To pose the question another way....if health and safety and education are sacrosanct how does Ontario get from a +/- $12B deficit and +/- $300B net debt position to either a) balanced budget or b) surplus budget that allows some debt repayment?

What kind of cuts to what would people accept?

 

[TOareaFan]

They only seem to have grown, like Universities. But in any case, I can't imagine they've shrunk the 100,000 that Universities have grown. But I don't have the numbers at hand.

Before we go too far down this path we would have to know if Hudak is including the colleges and universities budget in with his education budget when he claims we spend $8.5B more per year. They are two separate ministries, no?

 

[BurlOak]

"In Ontario, we spend $8.5 billion more on education than we did 10 years ago, to teach 250,000 fewer students."

Probably because of a combination of education underfunding under Mike Harris and inflation.

Perhaps its because the Liberals realized that the teachers union has the greatest effect on the typical Ontarian and giving them as much as they want is a a worthwhile expense to ensure stability.

 

[TOareaFan]

Perhaps its because the Liberals realized that the teachers union has the greatest effect on the typical Ontarian and giving them as much as they want is a a worthwhile expense to ensure stability.

To be fair to the Liberal government.......one of the promises most kept by them was the promise of labour peace in the education sector....some people (and I, patting myself on the back here, was one) assumed there would be a very large price attached to that labour peace. It may be what the people of Ontario want, perhaps, but showing the cost of that peace is also appropriate.

 

[ShonTron]

Also, note the LCBO's marketing campaigns. How else are they able afford the distribution of those nice, over sized, glossy advertising pamphlets every other week and come up with catchy radio ads?

The ad inserts are mostly paid for by the vendors, not the LCBO.

 

[TOareaFan]

The ad inserts are mostly paid for by the vendors, not the LCBO.

As, I understand, are publications like Vintages.

 

[BurlOak]

Back to Hudak and transit Just saw a quote from his presser today that says:

"We will put the province in charge of all rail-based transit and major highways in the GTA."

This sounds like:

a) ML (or something like it) will continue
b) Local rail based rapid transit (TTC subways and LRTs, Peel LRT) will be uploaded
c) Roads such as DVP, Gardiner and Allen will also be uploaded.

• "or something like it" may be more accurate. Metrolinx has not done much to strengthen their reputation in the past few years. Maybe just give upload everything to MTO and aknowledge that politics will always be there - instead of the charade of an Agency that is supposed to be arms length from the government.
• "rail based" could mean streetcars, but I think you have it correct - GO trains, subways, and any LRT type Rapid transit that might be built.
• I could see the Allen being dropped from the list - it is nowhere near as useful for the Region as the other 2 freeways. He mentioned Allen before, but not now.

 

[rbt]

Liberals would form majority government (if an election were held today) after Hudak's 100,000 job elimination announcement (Forum)

I don't believe this for a second. There must be something wrong with Forum's seat projection methodology.

308 also believes there is something wrong with Forums seat projection. They're fairly reliable at converting the variety of polling numbers into actual seat distributions. At this specific moment, they predict a Liberal/PC tie (43 seats each) and explain what might be wrong with the numbers from the poll you linked.

http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/ontario.html

 

[sno man]

I'm not opposed to moving both beer and liquor sales to corner stores. Though perhaps Hudak's 100,000 cuts don't include the LCBO ... I don't know, the more time passes, I don't think they do.

The plan is out today, someone on twitter quoted Hudak as having said the LCBO was not going to be touched... for now. So I guess that is that about that. For Now.

 

[MisterF]

To pose the question another way....if health and safety and education are sacrosanct how does Ontario get from a +/- $12B deficit and +/- $300B net debt position to either a) balanced budget or b) surplus budget that allows some debt repayment?

What kind of cuts to what would people accept?

Well we can start by keeping corporate taxes where they are (among the lowest in North America) instead of reducing them by 30%. Hudak wants to manufacture a crisis by cutting revenue to justify cutting services. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Well we can start by keeping corporate taxes where they are (among the lowest in North America) instead of reducing them by 30%. Hudak wants to manufacture a crisis by cutting revenue to justify cutting services. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.

This is heresy! A PC MPP would never "manufacture a crisis" just to justify policy changes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snobelen

The Progressive Conservatives won a majority government in the 1995 election, and Snobelen was appointed as Minister of Education and Training in Mike Harris's government on June 26, 1995. Shortly after his appointment, Snobelen was filmed arguing that the PC government needs to "bankrupt" and to create a "useful crisis" in the education system so as to initiate significant reforms ... In 1997, Snobelen introduced Bill 160, which gave the province control of municipal education taxes, introduced standardized testing, cut teaching preparation time, allowed the government to determine class sizes and granted early retirement initiatives to older, more experienced teachers

 

[Electrify]

I'm surprised that there is any reduction in the number of students, considering how much the population has increased over the last decade. I'm guessing it has to do with people having fewer kids and all...

...HOWEVER anecdotal evidence, but I know at least a couple of girls who have had kids in the last few months. It would be interesting what kind of hot water the province would find itself in if a baby boom now hurt the Conservatives in a few years.

(Who am I kidding? In 5 years the Liberals or NDP will get in and have to increase funding tenfold to fix the PC cuts and meet the new student needs. And guess who will be there to condemn every extra penny having to be spent on education as if it is needless waste?)

 

[innsertnamehere]

who says the PCs are going to win on June 12th?