Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[Solid Snake]

Don't count on the Relief Line being built under a PC gov't.

They won't if they don't get reelected

I am about 98% sure this won't bbe happeneing.

Probably not

It's been like this since right-wing politicians in this province have started standing in the way of transportation development by insisting on only building underused underground rail rapid transit systems while ignoring the advise of all the professionals. The incredibly high cost of these systems (compared to above ground light rail) means that we will only be able deploy a fraction of the transit and move less people than we would be able to if we used light rail. This isn't just an anti-transit stance, it's anti fiscal conservative.

Agreed. Transit is too political in this city/province. The liberals aren't really better though and the NDP is absent. But municpal leader have been just as toxic as the provincial government.

Unfortunately for the right-wing in this province, their only goal is pandering to auto drivers, even if that comes at the cost of more efficient transportation systems and true fiscal conservatism.

True but the cost of gridlock can't be ignore anymore...even for conservatives. Somethimg must be done and public transit is decade behind. Both liberals and conservatives agrees

Are we talking about the same Tim Hudak? seems an awful lot like Harris.

Harris did what he did to win. Hudak will do what he must to win. 2 different eras=2 different policies

And how do you expect Toronto to become it's own province? Not that's its something I'm against. Toronto would clearly be better off without Ontario.

We both agree on that one. Ontario is truly holding us back

 

[Solid Snake]

These are fair points. A little perspective is perhaps warranted.
My responses would be:
a) Hudak has demonstrated a Ford-esque grasp of the issue, promoting subways and ignoring or shunning LRT and BRT, even to the point of telling Mississauga they can have a subway one day instead of an LRT now, when all they want is the LRT now.

He's being populist on the subway file. True but the Liberal flip flop on the Scarborough subway was just as horrible.

Mississauga council wants the LRT but Hudak argued that citizens would rather have a subway to downtown Toronto with GO trains instead of LRT. It is a good question

b) He has said, if I understand correctly, that most of his grand plans will only come AFTER the budget has been balanced; so 3-4 years down the road.

True and I hate that


c) He has shown little/no interest in the notion of The Big Move as a regional plan or of Metrolinx as a group of experts who could provide useful information. How many of those 100,000 "useless" jobs he cuts will be at Metrolinx, the Ontario Growth Secretariat etc.? Many, I'd guess.[/QUOTE]

Metrolinx role would be upgraded if they did inherit Toronto's subway. Hopefully this would take rapid transit with a regional impact off the hands of local politicians.

d) He has talked, irresponsibly, about everything from eliminating Metrolinx to uploading the TTC over the past few years.

There's nothing irresponsible about that. Whocan argue that Transport for London works better than TTC/Metrolinx as is?

e) Harris aside, there is reason to be wary about what he will do with the triumvirate of Places to Grow, the Greenbelt and The Big Move.

And what about the economy and credit agencies willing to decrease our credit rating and raise the interest level on debts thus making our situation worse than Quebec? That scares me too

f) You're right that infrastructure investment is not inherently out of wack with conservative ideals but there is little enthusiasm in Canadian conservatism these days for infrastructure-as-job-creator. It's hypocritical, but it's a fact. Harper did it because he had to and even then it was a short-term infrastructure-oriented jobs plan, not the other way around. If this wasn't the case, he'd be implementing a national transit plan because ongoing infrastructure investment is a major stimulus factor, as he showed all by his lonesome. But he hasn't, because he doesn't want to

Tell me about it. I'm still mad that he doesn't think that high speed rail is not relevant 21st century

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

These are fair points. A little perspective is perhaps warranted.
My responses would be:
a) Hudak has demonstrated a Ford-esque grasp of the issue, promoting subways and ignoring or shunning LRT and BRT, even to the point of telling Mississauga they can have a subway one day instead of an LRT now, when all they want is the LRT now.
b) He has said, if I understand correctly, that most of his grand plans will only come AFTER the budget has been balanced; so 3-4 years down the road.
c) He has shown little/no interest in the notion of The Big Move as a regional plan or of Metrolinx as a group of experts who could provide useful information. How many of those 100,000 "useless" jobs he cuts will be at Metrolinx, the Ontario Growth Secretariat etc.? Many, I'd guess.
d) He has talked, irresponsibly, about everything from eliminating Metrolinx to uploading the TTC over the past few years.
e) Harris aside, there is reason to be wary about what he will do with the triumvirate of Places to Grow, the Greenbelt and The Big Move.
f) You're right that infrastructure investment is not inherently out of wack with conservative ideals but there is little enthusiasm in Canadian conservatism these days for infrastructure-as-job-creator. It's hypocritical, but it's a fact. Harper did it because he had to and even then it was a short-term infrastructure-oriented jobs plan, not the other way around. If this wasn't the case, he'd be implementing a national transit plan because ongoing infrastructure investment is a major stimulus factor, as he showed all by his lonesome. But he hasn't, because he doesn't want to.

So, people shouldn't be losing their minds about this stuff, but there is certainly some room for skepticism if not outright fear.

I don't think outright fear is unwarranted. I can say for certain that if there's a PC majority I'll have a few restless nights worrying about what they'll do to our city.

Life will go on. Just more cuts. I don't think anything will happen for the next 4 years if he wins.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

He's being populist on the subway file. True but the Liberal flip flop on the Scarborough subway was just as horrible.

Mississauga council wants the LRT but Hudak argued that citizens would rather have a subway to downtown Toronto with GO trains instead of LRT. It is a good question

First, the Libs didn't outright flip flop so much as they rolled over....perhaps that's splitting hairs.

BUT I don't see how you can criticize THAT and then suggest it matters a whit whether Miss. residents would rather have a subway. Isn't the whole point of the Scarborough debacle that political estimations of what people WANT shouldn't be a factor?

Metrolinx role would be upgraded if they did inherit Toronto's subway. Hopefully this would take rapid transit with a regional impact off the hands of local politicians.
...

There's nothing irresponsible about that. Whocan argue that Transport for London works better than TTC/Metrolinx as is?

I'd argue that no decent metro transportation system has one agency for the urban core and a multiplicity of others for the suburbs but that's really an argument for another thread.

In THEORY, Metrolinx would be "more powerful" if it took over TTC, assuming that's what Hudak wanted it to be. He can do anything he wants with a majority, including doing the upload to disempower both bodies. As a rather obvious example, amalgamation was allegedly about reducing waste and creating efficiency but the real goal was a political undermining of the city. Unifying Toronto did not make it stronger. So, I don't object outright to a TTC upload (in some form) but I don't trust Hudak to do so in the interests of creating a more seamless and efficient regional transit system.

Similarly, I hope it didn't sound like I was giving the guy a pass.I don't trust him to do the right thing by the city (or, for that matter, by the region)...I guess I'm just trying not to fear the worst this early in the game.

 

[Rainforest]

BUT I don't see how you can criticize THAT and then suggest it matters a whit whether Miss. residents would rather have a subway. Isn't the whole point of the Scarborough debacle that political estimations of what people WANT shouldn't be a factor?

Mississauga is a much more self-reliant entity than Scarborough. Therefore, I would think that Mississauga is more interested in its own Hurontario transit backbone, be it LRT or subway; whereas Scarborough is more interested in a fast connection to the rest of Toronto.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Mississauga is a much more self-reliant entity than Scarborough. Therefore, I would think that Mississauga is more interested in its own Hurontario transit backbone, be it LRT or subway; whereas Scarborough is more interested in a fast connection to the rest of Toronto.

That may be true but it's really besides the point. The LRT is in the Big Move and council (especially Hazel) has made it clear they want the LRT and not some hypothetical subways, eventually. If it turns into a municipal election issue in Mississauga and the new council is pro-subway, that might be an argument for changing gears. Hudak is showing disdain for the plan to date by deciding a subway is the way to go everywhere.

As an "entity," Mississauga has staked out a pro-LRT stance. Scarborough changed because parochial local councillors changed their minds and the province let them (and because, apparently, you can't have an intelligent, rational discussion about LRT in Toronto). Either way, you're throwing fact-based planning out the window, is the real point, if you opt for a subway in Mississauga, just as much as they did in Scarborough.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

These are fair points. A little perspective is perhaps warranted.
My responses would be:
a) Hudak has demonstrated a Ford-esque grasp of the issue, promoting subways and ignoring or shunning LRT and BRT, even to the point of telling Mississauga they can have a subway one day instead of an LRT now, when all they want is the LRT now.
b) He has said, if I understand correctly, that most of his grand plans will only come AFTER the budget has been balanced; so 3-4 years down the road.
c) He has shown little/no interest in the notion of The Big Move as a regional plan or of Metrolinx as a group of experts who could provide useful information. How many of those 100,000 "useless" jobs he cuts will be at Metrolinx, the Ontario Growth Secretariat etc.? Many, I'd guess.
d) He has talked, irresponsibly, about everything from eliminating Metrolinx to uploading the TTC over the past few years.
e) Harris aside, there is reason to be wary about what he will do with the triumvirate of Places to Grow, the Greenbelt and The Big Move.
f) You're right that infrastructure investment is not inherently out of wack with conservative ideals but there is little enthusiasm in Canadian conservatism these days for infrastructure-as-job-creator. It's hypocritical, but it's a fact. Harper did it because he had to and even then it was a short-term infrastructure-oriented jobs plan, not the other way around. If this wasn't the case, he'd be implementing a national transit plan because ongoing infrastructure investment is a major stimulus factor, as he showed all by his lonesome. But he hasn't, because he doesn't want to.

So, people shouldn't be losing their minds about this stuff, but there is certainly some room for skepticism if not outright fear.

Mississauga is a much more self-reliant entity than Scarborough. Therefore, I would think that Mississauga is more interested in its own Hurontario transit backbone, be it LRT or subway; whereas Scarborough is more interested in a fast connection to the rest of Toronto.

That may be true but it's really besides the point. The LRT is in the Big Move and council (especially Hazel) has made it clear they want the LRT and not some hypothetical subways, eventually. If it turns into a municipal election issue in Mississauga and the new council is pro-subway, that might be an argument for changing gears. Hudak is showing disdain for the plan to date by deciding a subway is the way to go everywhere.

As an "entity," Mississauga has staked out a pro-LRT stance. Scarborough changed because parochial local councillors changed their minds and the province let them (and because, apparently, you can't have an intelligent, rational discussion about LRT in Toronto). Either way, you're throwing fact-based planning out the window, is the real point, if you opt for a subway in Mississauga, just as much as they did in Scarborough.

Mississauga is only more reliant because it's outside Toronto. It also is the centerpiece of it's region, Scarborough is not. That being said, about 30 percent of people from Mississauga still commute to Toronto so it's not completely self reliant. All suburban subways extensions are voter buying exercises to some degree, so comparing Mississauga with Scarborough is pointless.

 

[GenerationW]

Don't count on the Relief Line being built under a PC gov't.

Then that would be their downfall.

But at least they're talking a good game regarding the DRL. So are Wynne, Soknacki, Stintz, and Tory. The only one missing is Chow.

And how do you expect Toronto to become it's own province?

Intervention by Putin.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Then that would be their downfall.

But at least they're talking a good game regarding the DRL. So are Wynne, Soknacki, Stintz, and Tory. The only one missing is Chow.

Intervention by Putin.

And who is going to check them inside the 416?

 

[toraerach]

True but the cost of gridlock can't be ignore anymore...even for conservatives. Somethimg must be done and public transit is decade behind. Both liberals and conservatives agrees

Cut 100,000 jobs, eliminate 100,000 commuters. Gridlock solved!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree. There are way too much public workers taking up space on our roads.

Why do they need to use the roads anyways? It's not like they do real work.

 

[Johnny Au]

I got a neat idea!

How about public servants working from home and everything would be sent through a secure website? They can cut their pay (and say that it is to pay for server maintenance). But hey, they would save money from transportation costs.

That would relieve so much traffic congestion.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And if I'm wrong, then he'll betray us all, Holiday will quit, and Toronto will rather become it's own province than vote PC ever again and Hudak will be out of a job in 2018. He might be an empty uncharismatic (I'd rather have a beer with Harper than him) shell but the man's not an idiot.

And how do you expect Toronto to become it's own province? Not that's its something I'm against. Toronto would clearly be better off without Ontario.

We both agree on that one. Ontario is truly holding us back

Intervention by Putin.

Secession from Ontario, or at least greater political independence, is a common theme on this board. Is this actually an idea that many Torontonians would stand behind en masse? And I'm curious about how exactly and under what circumstances Toronto would pursue greater political independence from the province.

Personally I think that this secession talk is a tad dramatic. However there definitely needs to be changes to the system and they need to happen soon. The municipalities in this country can no longer continue to be mere creatures of the province. Back when that was put in the Constitution Act, people likely couldn't fathom how large and politically influential some of the small towns in this country would eventually become.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Secession from Ontario, or at least greater political independence, is a common theme on this board. Is this actually an idea that many Torontonians would stand behind en masse? And I'm curious about how exactly and under what circumstances Toronto would pursue greater political independence from the province.

Personally I think that this secession talk is a tad dramatic. However there definitely needs to be changes to the system and they need to happen soon. The municipalities in this country can no longer continue to be mere creatures of the province. Back when that was put in the Constitution Act, people likely couldn't fathom how large and politically influential some of the small towns in this country would eventually become.

Seems that Hudak is making promises that a mayoralty candidate would be making. Next, he'll make promises that he'll reduce the public service employees by closing fire stations.

 

[sno man]

Seems that Hudak is making promises that a mayoralty candidate would be making. Next, he'll make promises that he'll reduce the public service employees by closing fire stations.

Fire Fighters were not among the specifically excluded in that -100k jobs plan. Could happen.