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Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

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Yes indeed. It's automobile town out here. Every second day when there's bad traffic I hear someone ramble on about the need for huge wide roads and a 16-lane 401.

In short, perfect hotbed for PC supporters. Pickering-Scarborough East and Ajax-Pickering are currently Liberal but I wonder how long that might last.
Considering most of Durham is only afloat due to NDP unions and Liberal bailouts, maybe they should be more grateful. Oshawa itself has about 1 in 5 people commuting to Downtown Toronto, that's almost as much as places like Oakville and Oshawa is supposed to be a anchor city.
 
-I admire your optimism :) I live in Thornhill and we just had a by-election, it seems like it was 2 weeks ago. Transit is a hot button issue and IMHO, my newly elected PC MPP has no idea what she's talking about on transit. She wants to cancel the Viva lanes they are building on Centre Street and redirect the $ to the Yonge subway. By my math, that would provide about 3% of the funding and yet she is adamant, because we need SUBWAYS. (We DO need that one, actually, but that doesn't mean we don't need bus lanes; but then ,again, those run on ROADS so they aren't useful in the PC playbook).

Moreover, the whole point of the white papers was to define the PC positions on issues and while they'll obviously be more detailed in a campaign, the urban white paper was terrible and ill conceived, IMHO. If they're building off that...well, let's just say I don't personally trust Tim Hudak to build subways all over any more than I would have trusted Rob Ford to do the same. But one is born every minute.

-I guess someone can poll Miss. residents as to whether they want an LRT now or a subway at some indeterminate date. I do know that Hazel McCallion told him to stick that plan where the sun don't shine. I think you're just making the point rather than endorsing it but I think we've all learned over the past year what happens when you give people the line they "want" or "deserve." What's relevant is what they need and what the density justifies etc. Everyone would probably WANT a personal helicopter to get to work faster. (And again, my MPP is all about what people WANT.)

-No, Hudak's INITIAL position was scrapping Metrolinx, a bunch of useless overpaid bureaucrats on the Liberal dole. then he shifted to uploading TTC. I think you overestimate Metrolinx's "reputation" in Toronto. We know what they did and didn't do in that debate but most people don't know who they are or just wonder, generically, if something like that wouldn't be their purview. Really, it's a slim minority who grasp what we're talking about here. They didn't do much to distinguish themselves there, that's for sure.

-I understand differentiation (even if I'm not sure Horwath does) but Metrolinx has a plan which means the onus is on Hudak to explain why it's flawed or paint it as some kind of "Liberal" document rather than starting from scratch. He can't articulate why LRT and BRT are bad, beyond Fordisms; he just knows people "want" subways so he pitches it, even if (for example) Mississauga council has planning purposely designed around an LRT they do want, and not a subway, they don't. Which is to say, obviously, he's pandering.

I could not possibly defend the Liberals on any number of files but if we're talking solely about transit, it seems to me they are miles (or km) ahead of anyone else. We'll see if Hudak can do better, but he didn't when it counted in my riding, and we'll see if Horwath has any ideas at all.

(Oh, and the Leslie portal is in Wynne's riding, isn't it? You think he's going to make a dent by appealing to the 1,000 people who might care in a riding he can't win anyway? He should figure out how to actually pay for his half-formed ideas first.)

Gila Martow sounds real dumb. Even if the Yonge subway went to Major Mackenzie you would still need the VIVA system anyway because people would have to get to Major Mackenzie somehow (oh and fyi TJ, after Highway 7, the MM extension will be next on the table according to some little birdies I have been talking to.)

You can build the Bloor Danforth subway to Square one with interfering with the LRT. Just avoid Hurontario and Dundas, do a cut and cover through the Dixie area. That would be much cheaper and preserve the LRT. Those are two different markets.
 
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(Oh, and the Leslie portal is in Wynne's riding, isn't it? You think he's going to make a dent by appealing to the 1,000 people who might care in a riding he can't win anyway? He should figure out how to actually pay for his half-formed ideas first.)

Even though the Leslie portal may be in a non-winnable riding, the fact is that many people from Scarborough, North York, and even York Region may pass through.

It is the same way that uploading and preserving the Gardiner makes sense for the PC's. It is not that they can win a riding that contains the Gardiner - it is that they can win ridings in Halton, Mississauga, Brampton, Etobicoke and Vaughan, all areas that use the Gardiner quite regularly.
 
Considering most of Durham is only afloat due to NDP unions and Liberal bailouts, maybe they should be more grateful. Oshawa itself has about 1 in 5 people commuting to Downtown Toronto, that's almost as much as places like Oakville and Oshawa is supposed to be a anchor city.

Oh I agree with you. Oshawa lost its distinct character and most of its own economy years ago and today blends in more and more to the general fabric of the GTA. I would suspect, although I don't have the statistics in front of me, that the proportion of commuters to downtown is even higher in Pickering, Ajax, and Whitby. Many of them take the GO train and would suffer heavily if GO service was reduced or public transit was the target of cuts. However, I get the feeling that a lot of people here in Durham view transit somewhat scornfully, with an image of "poor people" in the city boarding overcrowded buses, and think that they don't need it. A lot of our PC voters in Durham don't realize how dependent many of our own livelihoods are on good GO service.

In short, what economy does exist in Durham relies on the continued influence of the labour movement and unions (the industrial jobs of Oshawa, South Whitby, etc.) as well as good transit service, whether we realize it or not. This is all why it boggles my mind that PC support can be so high out here.
 
Oh I agree with you. Oshawa lost its distinct character and most of its own economy years ago and today blends in more and more to the general fabric of the GTA. I would suspect, although I don't have the statistics in front of me, that the proportion of commuters to downtown is even higher in Pickering, Ajax, and Whitby. Many of them take the GO train and would suffer heavily if GO service was reduced or public transit was the target of cuts. However, I get the feeling that a lot of people here in Durham view transit somewhat scornfully, with an image of "poor people" in the city boarding overcrowded buses, and think that they don't need it. A lot of our PC voters in Durham don't realize how dependent many of our own livelihoods are on good GO service.

In short, what economy does exist in Durham relies on the continued influence of the labour movement and unions (the industrial jobs of Oshawa, South Whitby, etc.) as well as good transit service, whether we realize it or not. This is all why it boggles my mind that PC support can be so high out here.

http://www.dmg.utoronto.ca/transportationtomorrowsurvey/2006/travel_summaries_for_the_gtha.html

Here are the stats for everywhere in the GTA. And you are correct! 19 percent for Oshawa, 33 percent for Whitby (double the rate into Oshawa), 48 percent for Ajax, and 54 percent for Pickering. It looks like Durham relies on GO service much more then other regions, and while the transit service is decent, it could be improved, like on Sundays. Durham looks to be much more dependent on Toronto then other places. It seems people want to have it both ways. They'll be crying for the Liberals if service reduced again.

Durham has always been the most conservative of all suburban regions, it comes as no surprise.

Your region talks out of both sides of its mouth, no offense.
 
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http://www.dmg.utoronto.ca/transportationtomorrowsurvey/2006/travel_summaries_for_the_gtha.html

Here are the stats for everywhere in the GTA. And you are correct! 19 percent for Oshawa, 33 percent for Whitby (double the rate into Oshawa), 48 percent for Ajax, and 54 percent for Pickering. It looks like Durham relies on GO service much more then other regions, and while the transit service is decent, it could be improved, like on Sundays. Durham looks to be much more dependent on Toronto then other places. It seems people want to have it both ways. They'll be crying for the Liberals if service reduced again.

Pretty well. The palpable sense of short memories fuelling PC votes is strong out here. People hear simple-minded rhetoric of cuts and efficiencies and go with it.

Durham has always been the most conservative of all suburban regions, it comes as no surprise.

I don't know if I'd say always. I view Oshawa's politics as almost reminiscent of industrial towns in the USA: once strong supporters of left-wing unionism, turned into right-wing voters by deception and divisive politics.
 
McGuinty proposed 55 or so transit projects early in his second term, and you focus on the one he funded during his first term?

Still, the point stands. Changing horses will delay transit for years.

Hmm, so it was. The memory cheats. Though by June 2007 (and even late 2006), the Liberals were generally in the high 30s and low 40s, mostly ahead of the Tories, so BurlOak's comment that the announcement came "late in his first mandate when he was fully expecting to lose to John Tory and it was his Hail Mary attempt", seems incorrect.

Though they did start construction on the Sheppard East LRT back in 2009, with that grade separation. Had the Liberal MPPs and councillors in Scarborough not put a stop to it, it would have entered service last year.

I think you edited while I was typing :)

Yeah, it's hard to remember the whole timeline of GTTA-->Metrolinx--->Move2020--->Big Move.

I totally agree about changing horses. I don't think that's going to be enough to deter people sick of the Grits though.

And, yes, they did start Sheppard LRT. The time Toronto has squandered since getting that money is....disappointing.

It's kind of sad/amazing that the feds never came through with any more money (unless you count the Rob Ford advance for Scarborough) and we still haven't implemented revenue tools. In 2007, I was probably personally reticent about things like revenue tools but if you're paying attention, it's just inevitable. And yet the Libs have delayed, the PCs have taken a page from Rob Ford and I don't even know what Horwath is doing. I hope a serious transit discussion will be part of this election but I'm guessing it will mostly be gas plants etc.

Gila Martow sounds real dumb. Even if the Yonge subway went to Major Mackenzie you would still need the VIVA system anyway because people would have to get to Major Mackenzie somehow (oh and fyi TJ, after Highway 7, the MM extension will be next on the table according to some little birdies I have been talking to.)

What do you mean by the MM extension? The Yonge subway all the way to Major Mac? They've already OK'd the Viva lanes up Yonge - they just issued the construction contract a couple of weeks ago. I think the subway is inevitable but it's cruel irony in the meantime that the bus lanes are going in everywhere else except the most obvious RT corridor in the area.
 
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I think you edited while I was typing :)

Yeah, it's hard to remember the whole timeline of GTTA-->Metrolinx--->Move2020--->Big Move.

I totally agree about changing horses. I don't think that's going to be enough to deter people sick of the Grits though.

And, yes, they did start Sheppard LRT. The time Toronto has squandered since getting that money is....disappointing.

It's kind of sad/amazing that the feds never came through with any more money (unless you count the Rob Ford advance for Scarborough) and we still haven't implemented revenue tools. In 2007, I was probably personally reticent about things like revenue tools but if you're paying attention, it's just inevitable. And yet the Libs have delayed, the PCs have taken a page from Rob Ford and I don't even know what Horwath is doing. I hope a serious transit discussion will be part of this election but I'm guessing it will mostly be gas plants etc.



What do you mean by the MM extension? The Yonge subway all the way to Major Mac? They've already OK'd the Viva lanes up Yonge - they just issued the construction contract a couple of weeks ago. I think the subway is inevitable but it's cruel irony in the meantime that the bus lanes are going in everywhere else except the most obvious RT corridor in the area.

Yes up to Major Mackenzie. Did you really think they would stop at Langstaff? There has been talk since the late 2000s. There was one Vaughan proposal to actually bring the Spadina line to Jane and Major Mackenzie (Wonderland) saw it in the star years ago.
 
Yes up to Major Mackenzie. Did you really think they would stop at Langstaff? There has been talk since the late 2000s. There was one Vaughan proposal to actually bring the Spadina line to Jane and Major Mackenzie (Wonderland) saw it in the star years ago.

North of Hwy 7, the ridership will drop considerably. Furthermore, that will create a gap between the Yonge North and the Hwy 7 VIVA routes (unless they continue to run VIVA between Major Mackenzie and RHC in parallel with subway, creating an even greater gap between demand and the total capacity.

A subway to RHC is reasonable (after DRL is built), but not so north of RHC.
 
Subways to Major Mackenzie is too far. That's what GO transit is for.

North of Hwy 7, the ridership will drop considerably. Furthermore, that will create a gap between the Yonge North and the Hwy 7 VIVA routes (unless they continue to run VIVA between Major Mackenzie and RHC in parallel with subway, creating an even greater gap between demand and the total capacity.

A subway to RHC is reasonable (after DRL is built), but not so north of RHC.

Working theory will state that you can (should really) still run VIVA to Langstaff if only because there is no other suitable terminal on the route. But I don't agree with bringing subways to Major Mac at all, it's just what I heard.
 
a couple of local politicians like to muse about it, nobody with the power to do anything about it really takes it seriously. as others have mentioned, ridership plummets north of Highway 7, the vast majority of the ridership north of Steeles comes from the RHC bus hub.
 
So long as debate erupts over building subway lines actually inside the City of Toronto, extending the subway to Major Mac is just a pipe dream.
 
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