Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[EnviroTO]

I'd have been using transit a decade ago that Bob Rae cancelled.

What did Bob Rae cancel? I thought he got the shovels in the ground for the Eglinton subway? Did he pull shovels out of the ground somewhere else?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Did he? He downloaded GO Transit to the GTA municipalities. I think it was the elimination of any money for GO that resulted in the service cuts, rather than Harris himself. Though not living in the GTA at the time, I wasn't paying as much attention.

Harris gutted GO funding at the same time he killed the TTC operating/capital grants they'd been receiving. GO funding got restored (to a point) later in his term but as Modern pointed out, we're still recovering from a lot of what he did. It might seem lame to blame someone for something 20 years ago but the fact is it's easier to destroy than to build.

So, now we're finally building the Eglinton line Harris buried to save $1B. In the past 15 years, how much was lost from gridlock that could have been alleviated by that line? How many blocks were never re-developed? How many condos never built? How many construction jobs never filled? Enough to add up to $1B in "savings"? Maybe.

Hudak has a bit of a "kindler, gentler" spin than Harris but his plan is a farce. When he put his urban white paper out I wanted to punch out a wall. On page 10 he mentions "the Sheppard subway stump" and the need to extend it. Watching a Harris caucus member call that line a stump when he voted to amputate is sufficient to convince me I could never vote for Hudak, no matter what other policies he might have that appeal to me. Takes some nerve, man.



(I assume the Rae remark above is a typo? The Sheppard and Eglinton lines were both Rae projects that Harris killed.)

 

[nfitz]

What did Bob Rae cancel? I thought he got the shovels in the ground for the Eglinton subway? Did he pull shovels out of the ground somewhere else?

He cancelled Network 2011 (which had morphed into Peterson's "Let's Move" program). It stopped when the NDP came to power in 1990, and they finally started to do something late in their mandate, with Eglinton West starting construction of enabling works just before the election. So perhaps not so much cancel, but put on hold for 3 years. But you know what they say, transit delayed is transit denied.

(I assume the Rae remark above is a typo? The Sheppard and Eglinton lines were both Rae projects that Harris killed.)

Like Harris's later refunding of GO, Rae did later push ahead with Sheppard and Eglinton. However, if he had done so at the beginning of his mandate, rather than the end, then it would have got further.

Though Peterson is also to blame, as he sat on TTC and Metro council's original 1985 plan for near 5 years, before finally funding it late in his mandate, but dropping the number 2 priority item - the downtown relief line.

It's the same thing, over and over again. Every time we change horses, we lose years. McGuinty to Wynne being about the only exception ... though given she was Transportation Minister back in 2010/2011 when a lot of these projects were formulated, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that there has been rare continuity.

 

[BurlOak]

He cancelled Network 2011 (which had morphed into Peterson's "Let's Move" program). It stopped when the NDP came to power in 1990, and they finally started to do something late in their mandate, with Eglinton West starting construction of enabling works just before the election. So perhaps not so much cancel, but put on hold for 3 years. But you know what they say, transit delayed is transit denied.

Like Harris's later refunding of GO, Rae did later push ahead with Sheppard and Eglinton. However, if he had done so at the beginning of his mandate, rather than the end, then it would have got further.

Though Peterson is also to blame, as he sat on TTC and Metro council's original 1985 plan for near 5 years, before finally funding it late in his mandate, but dropping the number 2 priority item - the downtown relief line.

It's the same thing, over and over again. Every time we change horses, we lose years. McGuinty to Wynne being about the only exception ... though given she was Transportation Minister back in 2010/2011 when a lot of these projects were formulated, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that there has been rare continuity.

It seems every leader since the Conservative Davis as only funded transit in the final legs of their mandate. The only exception, by accident, is McGuinty. He only came up with something on transit late in his first mandate when he was fully expecting to lose to John Tory and it was his Hail Mary attempt. In retrospect, since Tory self destructed, it looks like the Liberals planned things from the start, even though it is not true.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It seems every leader since the Conservative Davis as only funded transit in the final legs of their mandate. The only exception, by accident, is McGuinty. He only came up with something on transit late in his first mandate when he was fully expecting to lose to John Tory and it was his Hail Mary attempt. In retrospect, since Tory self destructed, it looks like the Liberals planned things from the start, even though it is not true.

That makes a degree of sense. The only difference this time is that Metrolinx (in its previous form) had already been created. In theory, it should have provided a means to ensure that plans aren't cancelled and changed every time the government does. I suspect that theory is about to be put to the test.

(And I thought maybe Rae had something to do with Network 2011 but couldn't remember. BUT, correct me if I'm wrong, that was a Toronto plan, not a regional plan. Any way you slice it, the succession of plans that have failed to come to realization is stunning. We have a fairly decent one now so, fingers crossed.)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That makes a degree of sense. The only difference this time is that Metrolinx (in its previous form) had already been created. In theory, it should have provided a means to ensure that plans aren't cancelled and changed every time the government does. I suspect that theory is about to be put to the test.

(And I thought maybe Rae had something to do with Network 2011 but couldn't remember. BUT, correct me if I'm wrong, that was a Toronto plan, not a regional plan. Any way you slice it, the succession of plans that have failed to come to realization is stunning. We have a fairly decent one now so, fingers crossed.)

2011 was the plan to be funded by the province. It was a city plan but they were not paying for it.

 

[BurlOak]

That makes a degree of sense. The only difference this time is that Metrolinx (in its previous form) had already been created. In theory, it should have provided a means to ensure that plans aren't cancelled and changed every time the government does. I suspect that theory is about to be put to the test.

(And I thought maybe Rae had something to do with Network 2011 but couldn't remember. BUT, correct me if I'm wrong, that was a Toronto plan, not a regional plan. Any way you slice it, the succession of plans that have failed to come to realization is stunning. We have a fairly decent one now so, fingers crossed.)

That theory was already put to the test during the 2013 Scarborough by-election.

The government that created Metrolinx as an "independent" body, overruled the published recommendations that LRT should be built to STC. Not only that, but then Metrolinx changed their conclusions that LRT is best and now are in agreement with the B-D extension. So, not only did the Liberals discredit the entire reason why Metrolinx was created in the first place, they also discredited the entire organization by forcing them to change their conclusions. (i.e. not only did they say that polics is the final vote, but they said that the technical experts must change their conclusion to suit the prevailing political direction).

I think both the NDP and Conservatives are in a much better place to change the Metrolinx plans - since they were not the ones who created the Agency in the first place. They may feel, perhaps rightly so, that experts should determine the options for transit, but the people, through there politicians, should have the final say.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think both the NDP and Conservatives are in a much better place to change the Metrolinx plans - since they were not the ones who created the Agency in the first place. They may feel, perhaps rightly so, that experts should determine the options for transit, but the people, through there politicians, should have the final say.

That's a rather funny view, considering the positions Hudak has taken on transit planning already ruled out certain modes while prompting priorities of their own, so unless is a transit planning expert that none of us knew about...

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

never mind actively wanting to encourage sprawl and remove the greenbelt and places to grow acts.. Because that will do miracles for transit!

 

[Platform 27]

Not only that, but then Metrolinx changed their conclusions that LRT is best and now are in agreement with the B-D extension. So, not only did the Liberals discredit the entire reason why Metrolinx was created in the first place, they also discredited the entire organization by forcing them to change their conclusions.

Er, when did Metrolinx "change their conclusions that LRT is best"? This guy seems to disagree with you.

 

[howl]

It seems every leader since the Conservative Davis as only funded transit in the final legs of their mandate. The only exception, by accident, is McGuinty. He only came up with something on transit late in his first mandate when he was fully expecting to lose to John Tory and it was his Hail Mary attempt. In retrospect, since Tory self destructed, it looks like the Liberals planned things from the start, even though it is not true.

The problem is political terms are no more than five years and it takes 10 to 15 years to plan and build a major transit line. Despite what they promise in a campaign, politician don't like paying for long-term infrastructure projects because they don't personally get any political payback. Most politicians are in it for themselves, not for the plebes that vote for them.

 

[nfitz]

It seems every leader since the Conservative Davis as only funded transit in the final legs of their mandate. The only exception, by accident, is McGuinty. He only came up with something on transit late in his first mandate when he was fully expecting to lose to John Tory and it was his Hail Mary attempt. In retrospect, since Tory self destructed, it looks like the Liberals planned things from the start, even though it is not true.

Hang on. I agree with you. Davis was great for transport, though Miller was very transit unfriendly, and did a lot of damage in a few short months.

But the McGuinty-Tory election was in late 2007. McGuinty's big transit announcements started in 2008, near the beginning of his second mandate.

 

[BurlOak]

Hang on. I agree with you. Davis was great for transport, though Miller was very transit unfriendly, and did a lot of damage in a few short months.

But the McGuinty-Tory election was in late 2007. McGuinty's big transit announcements started in 2008, near the beginning of his second mandate.

The TYSSE is a $2.6 billion fully-funded project, made possible through funding from all three levels of government. In 2006, the Provincial government announced it would contribute $670 million, with an additional $200 million announced in 2007. The Federal Government announced its $697-million commitment to the project through the Building Canada Fund in 2007. The City of Toronto and the Regional Municipality of York will provide the remaining funds, each contributing $526 million and $352 million, respectively.

http://www.bigmove.ca/wp-content/up...ctsInProgress-Toronto-York-Spadina-Subway.pdf

 

[taal]

Sorry maybe I missed it what's the plan for Eglinton ?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Er, when did Metrolinx "change their conclusions that LRT is best"? This guy seems to disagree with you.

They didn't change their conclusions - I'm sure their staff knew exactly what was going on.

The bigger issues is that, politically, they had no power and effectively said, "Our job is to go with the flow and if Toronto changes its mind, we're OK with that (OK, with a few caveats)." I totally agree that their vulnerability was exposed in that debate. I still think that once they have sustained funding, giving them proper authority will follow. That's what I meant when I said it's not too late

Hang on. I agree with you. Davis was great for transport, though Miller was very transit unfriendly, and did a lot of damage in a few short months.

But the McGuinty-Tory election was in late 2007. McGuinty's big transit announcements started in 2008, near the beginning of his second mandate.

No - Move2020 was in June 2007. That's the money we've been spending ever since (except in Scarborough, where we haven't spent anything because we need at least 7-8 years to figure out just what to spend it on....). That's the single biggest transit investment in memory, if not ever, and it was well before 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoveOntario_2020

Metrolinx had already been created by then (as the GTTA) and Move2020 lead to the Big Move which, yes, was 2008.